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really fast Sc 240z


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#1 zr240

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 06:19 PM

I saw an awsome drive from a white 240z at phillip island historic by Peter Hall

Came 3rd in the historic sportscar race doing high 1:54!!!!!

Lurch I guess I was wrong when I said there is no way you could go quicker than a 1:55 in an historic zed!!!

Does anyone know what he is running in it. ie engine spec as it must be a real good engine and handleing setup!!!

Ash

#2 Zedman240®

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 08:23 PM

Apparently its just a healthy L26 making 230 rwHp. Another club member asked how he achieved it but he was very tight lipped! Its a 260Z 2 seater running with 6" rims on 185 semi slicks...how the hell does he do it? I guess its all in the handling..

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#3 zr240

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 08:47 PM

Thats alot of hp out of a twin su zed!

Ash

#4 Lurch ™

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 01:32 AM

I told you it could be done Ash!

Money thrown at some 'proper' car development, a healthy amount of revs(!) & a driver that knows what he's doing would be the key.
SU's aren't a bad thing mate, they can be made to flow 'nearly' as much as DCOE Webers - they just don't have the response :(

And of coarse he's gonna remain tight lipped - secrets aren't free... ;D

(Awesome effort by Peter too!)

#5 zr240

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 09:49 AM

Yer he must have the package (inc driver) right on the money!

If its a 260z does that meen it has those flat top carbies???

Ash

#6 Zeddophile

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:59 AM

If its a 260z does that meen it has those flat top carbies???


Unless he has been given concessions to run SUs, yes.  The section of Sc regs on induction states that bore size is free, but make, type and number must remain as standard (but any period style manifold can be used).  Which in theory means on SUs you could run some with much bigger throats.

Engine wise, the block, head and stroke must remain original (or a CAMS approved alternative), but internals are free, and a 1.5mm overbore is allowed.  Heads can also be modified by removal of metal only (guessing that means no larger valves!).  So if you were smart, you would bore out the allowed 1.5mm, giving you about an extra 80cc of capacity.  Then you'd use flattop pistons to bring up the compression (which incidentally would probably lose most of the displacement increase), and port the crap out of the head, to match the big and scary cam you just put in.  Set of extractors to complete the picture, and you've got a pretty angry motor starting to form up.

#7 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 08:59 PM

If its a 260z does that meen it has those flat top carbies???


(guessing that means no larger valves!).  So if you were smart, you would bore out the allowed 1.5mm, giving you about an extra 80cc of capacity.  Then you'd use flattop pistons to bring up the compression (which incidentally would probably lose most of the displacement increase), and port the crap out of the head, to match the big and scary cam you just put in.  Set of extractors to complete the picture, and you've got a pretty angry motor starting to form up.


flat top or dished has no effect on displacement. just compression volume. stroke & bore is the only thing that governs this.

Peters cars are all about less is more, less porting to keep intake velocities high. combustion chamber shape and cam is moreso what hes keeping tight lipped. the 2.8 + litres is a bit of a blur of the rules!!, as is the intake and head choice. nothing is ever what it seems on petes cars. i also am aware his son bens car is pumping out 260hp+ from the L, with throt bods and motec!, these motors love to spin and the bigger stroke is not always the way to go.

I know a couple of people that know more about what he does run, but thats why he is so succesful as he doesnt tell all to anyone, one thing i do know is that the piece of crap that a members here ,ate sold over here was a bucket no matter what, pete waived his wand and got it running like silk, YES silk. even i was astonished with the response and tune fre the early hitachi/su type carbs.

Peter really knows his Z cars and L series motors, and could teach alot of the eastern state z specialst a few hundred things or 2.
not bad from some guy out in the hills who reapairs lawnmower motors!!!!

nato

#8 zr240

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 09:19 PM

Hi nato

Well it still suprizes me that a zed with std brakes (drums on the rear!) and too the sc rules can do it!

Also it has to run the head that came with the car (E88 i think?) and as zedophile said its on 1.5mm overbore on his 2.6 block which would make it just under 2.8L??? (not sure if I calculated right)

I agree on the bigger storke being not always the way to go as my old L race motor was not stroked and put out over 260hp aswell.

I personally dont know of any z specialists in the eastern states  ;) or non i would take my car to  :D

Anyway Its one hell of a good setup zed in my book just would love to have a closer look one day

Ash


#9 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 09:30 PM

ill see what i can come up with.

trust me when i say nothing is as it seems on his cars.

its just really funny how people are flawed when thay have a quick look over his car.

rear brakes, well how much do they really do when you are 11/10ths on the picks, good quality shoe and pad compouds do more than anything else in a braking system besides area!!!! adequete cooling & pad compound is the key on the fronts (as it is in any brake and clutch system).

rules are made to be bent and maybe snapped into 20 pieces LOL.  Pete is an old fart that knows almost every engine components combo there is within and outta the "rules" its like trying teach the creator hoe to make something he already created from scratch.
old dog and old tricks. reminds me of the old "mothballs in your fuel to up the octane" trick, something you grandpa used to do when he was a kid!!!

nato

#10 260Coupe

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 08:37 AM

Guys

I built and raced an Sc 240z a few years ago and I can tell you that 230 rwhp is a liitle unrealistic breathing through 1 3/4 " Hitachi SUs. I had my SUs bench flowed and the max calculated HP was around 220 (BHP - at the fly wheel), this was further backed up by my car marking around 118 rwkw (155 HP) on the chassis dyno, this however was on standard points ignition (yes I stuck to the rules- all other Zeds were running illegal 280 transistor ignitions) .
I also had a set of triple 44mm solexs and squeezed 135 rwkw with the potential for around 145 with transitor ignition (yes this is from an L24)
At the same time Michael Jones's Zed had around 110 rwkw in his Sc Zed and was doing 1:56s at P.I, so you don't need big HP just good handling and big conyonnies !

The week point was always the brakes, the pad material was critical, most race pads like Hawk or EBC were way too agressive and caused lock ups when hot (not enough tyre grip from the 195/60/14 A032s), I then when to a cheap and cheerful Lucas pad and they were brilliant and less than $60 a set and would last two meets (I was paying around $300 for hawk pads and flat spotting tyes).
The new owner of my old Zed did 2:01s on his very first drive at last years P.I Historic meet (using the old Hawk pads and flat spotting tyres- I did tell him to stick with the lucas ??) and agreed the car would be good for sub 1:57s once he got the hang of steering a Zed and changing the pad material)

I see now that most Zeds are also running with front spoilers (only the original rubber chin spoiler was homologated so all other types are illegal), I would suggest that Peter Halls Zed is making around  125- 135rwkw  (170hp) on 2" Jag SUs with very good suspension/brake set up......and some damn good steering ability.

This was my old Zed (with illegal front spoiler)

Alan

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#11 620Z

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 09:36 AM

Yes nice car but remember the Island track is more a handling track than a HP track. With 285 semi slicks on, that would be a massive advantage. Then if you gut the car to make it as light as possible then you are going to make the most of the HP he has. That with some balsy driving and 4 wheel drifting everywhere then I guess you come up with a great time like he did.

#12 zr240

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 01:21 PM

Well he only had 195 semi slicks!

And there wasnt alot of four wheel drifting (not visable anyway). Was just very clean lines and nice driving.

The Panteras and other v8s will still blow the zed away as the are still a few seconds quicker.

Ash

#13 620Z

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 01:46 PM

My mistake on the 195's. He must have been 4 wheel drifting everywhere. Pretty impresive on those tyres. I can tell you he won't be getting those times doing clean lines on 195 tyres alone.

#14 Lurch ™

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 02:41 PM

My mistake on the 195's. He must have been 4 wheel drifting everywhere. Pretty impresive on those tyres. I can tell you he won't be getting those times doing clean lines on 195 tyres alone.


??? You've gotta be joking Craig!?
The ONLY driving style he'd be doing those times is, is with clean, fast lines while keeping up Maximum corner speed.
Pushing hard yes. But 'Power Sliding'? Thats a sure fire way to loose time on the track.
Come Go-Karting with me & I'll prove you my point ;)

/me opens up a can of worm's'

#15 mossy

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 03:54 PM

A supercharged MX5 I owned a couple of years ago was set up by the previous owner who ran third in the 03 NSW dutton rally, that car had only 118rwkw and I had 205 semi slicks on it, it was running 1.57's at the island.

#16 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 04:37 PM

My mistake on the 195's. He must have been 4 wheel drifting everywhere. Pretty impresive on those tyres. I can tell you he won't be getting those times doing clean lines on 195 tyres alone.


??? You've gotta be joking Craig!?
The ONLY driving style he'd be doing those times is, is with clean, fast lines while keeping up Maximum corner speed.
Pushing hard yes. But 'Power Sliding'? Thats a sure fire way to loose time on the track.
Come Go-Karting with me & I'll prove you my point ;)

/me opens up a can of worm's'


Whats not nice? i also own a v8 Z and lets just say being lazy you can drive it slightly loose which feels very fast but the laptimes will beg to differ, but driving a high powered Z car on the knife edge is so thrilling, well more thrilling than grip racing. Why do you think those silly drifters took off in their own class!
Even peter has mentioned that even though the drift racing is slow, its one hell of a fun ride aswell as good for the spectating crowds. something F1 would benefeit from im sure we would all aggree!!

#17 zr240

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 04:50 PM

Come on nato play nice :)

Craig I saw the lines and they were very clean. he was hardly even drifting at all coming onto the main straight and most cars drift a little coming out of that corner!

The thing with Phillip Island is carrying speed through the corners and even though I had more grip and power in my race zed I still needed to keep as smooth as possible if I had any chance of keeping up with the turbo porsches etc. As you guys may know my zed got down to 1:47 at the island and that was on second hand slick tyres and a lot smaller budget than alot of sportscars. I figured out it would cost me just as much to run an historic zed as the rules are so tight you really need to have good tyres/ brakes and fresh motor.

Anyways hopfully the new racecar will be faster but we will see :)

Ash

#18 Zeddophile

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 05:07 PM

flat top or dished has no effect on displacement. just compression volume. stroke & bore is the only thing that governs this.


I'd be interested to know why you say this?  The dish in the piston is there when the piston is at bottom dead centre as well as TDC.  If you are determining the size of your cylinder (ie. the whole volume at bottom dead centre), you would take the bore and stroke into consideration, then add the volume of the dish of your piston and the volume of the chamber in your head.  Sure, at top dead centre your cylinder volume is only the volume of the dish in the piston, the chamber in the head, and the area between the piston and top of block height if your piston doesn't come up flush.  No argument with that at all.

However, while the cylinder is filling with air and fuel, it still has to fill the dish in the piston as well, regardless of piston position (assuming 100% efficiency of course).

I know traditionally displacement only considers swept volume, but thats not exactly the whole picture when you actually consider whats going on inside the motor.  And when boring it out 5mm gives a per cylinder increase of around 13.5cc, and the dish in my Rover 4.6 pistons was 28ish......

Not trying to have a go, just stating my view, and wondering where you are coming from with yours?

#19 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 09:52 PM

/me opens up a can of worm's'
[/quote]

Edited by Lurch - that's not nice Nato :)
[/quote]

why the hell was that edited lurch, change it back, i was making reference to someone that drives a zed with a v8 in it like a Z with a v8 in it!!!

and NO, the only thing dish has to do with anything is compression volume ie your displacement ends up compressed into your comb chamber , dish included, ie
volume (displaced) div by combustion chamber volume = comp ratio, the dish is always in the same place regardless of bdc, tdc or half stroke. Think about it a lil bit more if i push a cup up and down in a cyl the only volume i displace is that i move the cup, not the cup volume. displacement is only that which you dis-place ie bore area x stroke x # of cyls = displacement. swept volume is yoou arctual displacement, your dish and combustion chamber is noted in tech papers as clearance volume.
the intake strkoe (even @ 100% eff)never fils the dish as it never eptied it! so mainly takes part in mixture change, ie the intake charge has a slightly larger volume to mix with which therefor changes the intake mixture slightly, this is compensated for in the tuning and is why they used dished pistons in the design of the heat engine among other reasons too!

Zeddophile, nothing personal taken, just a good topic for disc, sorry to thread jack guys, no lets get back onto petes quick "stock" class lap times!!!

AND PUT MY POST BACK!!! i think my contribution to this thread has been more than useful, why is my opininon/jokes any less welcome than anyone else's, who is the softee here?

#20 gav240z

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 10:50 PM

why the hell was that edited lurch, change it back, i was making reference to someone that drives a zed with a v8 in it like a Z with a v8 in it!!!

AND PUT MY POST BACK!!! i think my contribution to this thread has been more than useful, why is my opininon/jokes any less welcome than anyone else's, who is the softee here?


I saw the post before Lurch edited it. I think he was trying to stop anyone getting upset at what I thought was a relatively harmless jibe :). I say harmless because as I understand it you yourself are a V8 Z guy?

Anyway we'll see what Lurch has to say.




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