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Kameari Adjustable Shock Valving


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#1 Riceburner

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 09:08 AM

I received some specs for the valving of the Kameari adjustable shocks. Does anyone know how to interpret the figures?

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#2 Cozza

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 11:12 AM

I have never read any shock specs but the way I read it is:
Growth is rebound and shrink is bump.
Setting 0 is hardest and 40 is softest (which seems a little backward)
The measurement is force required in Newtons to move the shock 0.3m in 1 second. So 3551N for growth setting 0 and 880N for growth setting 40.
Keep in mind that 1 kg is approx 10 Newton.

Edited for clarity. Thanks Gongz

So for growth setting 0 you would have to apply 88kg's to stretch the shock 300mm in 1 second.

Complete guess though.

Edited by Cozza, 01 May 2016 - 08:46 PM.


#3 GongZ

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 11:57 AM

..
Keep in mind that 1 Newton is approx 10kg.
...

 

I think you have got this backwards Cozza. According my discussions with Dr Google;

 

1 kg = 9.81 Newtons

OR

1 Newton = 102 grams

 

I remember a 'Structural Systems' lecturer (an engineer) telling us that Arthur Beetson exerted a force of approximately 1 kilonewton (1,000 Newtons) on the ground (given that he had a mass of about 100 kg).


Edited by GongZ, 30 April 2016 - 12:31 PM.


#4 Cozza

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 08:43 PM

I think you have got this backwards Cozza. According my discussions with Dr Google;

1 kg = 9.81 Newtons
OR
1 Newton = 102 grams

I remember a 'Structural Systems' lecturer (an engineer) telling us that Arthur Beetson exerted a force of approximately 1 kilonewton (1,000 Newtons) on the ground (given that he had a mass of about 100 kg).


You are spot on Ian. My bad.

#5 Riceburner

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 11:04 PM

Thanks guys, makes more sense now.



#6 Triptych

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 08:53 AM

Gareth who are you sourcing the shocks through? 



#7 Riceburner

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 09:21 PM

With all the other parts I've gone direct through Mori san at Kameari, I guess it'll come down to who's priced best. I found these on ZCCJDM and Brian was good enough to supply that spec sheet. 

 

I want to compare shock sizes and specs with a few different options first. I can PM you if you when I get more info.



#8 260DET

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 11:13 AM

What I'm about to say may not be popular but as a general rule 'Japanese' consumer dampers are not very good. There is a company in Taiwan that makes so called 40 point adjustables for heaps of new brands, seriously they are very ordinary compared with proper race dampers. MCA are much more preferable if you have to have adjustables, if not revalved Bilsteins are still the best choice out of the non adjustables.



#9 HS30-H

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 03:11 AM

What I'm about to say may not be popular but as a general rule 'Japanese' consumer dampers are not very good.

 

Are you making the distinction between dampers which pretend to be Japanese, and dampers that actually are Made In Japan, by Japanese companies...?



#10 Cozza

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 07:26 AM

What true Japanese dampers are available and that you would recommend Alan?

I use Tokico Illuminas on my car but I don't think the Tokico's of today are of the same quality of yesteryear.

Mick

#11 260DET

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 08:06 AM

This is an American article but still applicable here http://farnorthracin..._secrets18.html

 

On the subject of 40 adjustment dampers they are sold under many different brand names, look great and are usually priced very competitively. For a start having 40 adjustments is ridiculous, if the dampers are valved specifically for a particular car as they should be then ten adjustments are more than enough. My race Zed has three way adjustable MCA dampers, one click is usually enough to make the required change.



#12 260DET

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 08:10 AM

Are you making the distinction between dampers which pretend to be Japanese, and dampers that actually are Made In Japan, by Japanese companies...?

 

Are you making the distinction between dampers which pretend to be Japanese, and dampers that actually are Made In Japan, by Japanese companies...?

My comment was general because my knowledge on that part of the subject is general, refer particularly to the article I linked and the other 'shocks' articles there for more specific comment.


Edited by 260DET, 06 May 2016 - 08:18 AM.


#13 Riceburner

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:06 AM

I find the spec sheet a little hard to understand but the way I read it was that the shocks had only 10 steps of adjustment?

I'm not looking to spend 1000's on shocks or having them re-valved, Ideally I'd like something with some adjustment that will allow me to tinker and possibly cope with potential spring rate changes.

Specified spring range is 5-12kg, surely they'd have to be pretty decent to be able to control those rates?

I've purchased a fair bit of kit from Kameari and its all been first class.

EDIT:
There's these (bilstein 34-050224) from bilstein to suit a Mitsubishi 300gt. It would mean a lot more work fitting 55mm struts in the rear and some machining of spacers etc. I'm not sure what the valving specs are on these.

Edited by Gareth. J., 06 May 2016 - 09:28 AM.


#14 260DET

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 10:30 AM

If the dampers are initially valved correctly for the vehicle then changes in spring rates are the main reason for having adjustables, tyres to some degree too if you really know what to do. There is plenty of info around on S30 spring rates though so if you get them about right first go then minor rate changes should be OK with Bilsteins but, as always, talk to a Bilstein expert..



#15 HS30-H

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 06:14 PM



My comment was general because my knowledge on that part of the subject is general, refer particularly to the article I linked and the other 'shocks' articles there for more specific comment.

 

You appear to be lumping the generic 'Made In Taiwan' damper units (used by the likes of BC, et al) in with 'Made in Japan' damper units. Is that because they are all, er, 'asian' or something? 

 

 

According to FarNorthRacing:

 

Remember this list:


  • Bilstein

  • Penske

  • Koni

  • Ohlins

  • Sachs

  • Dynamic Suspension


Not on this list? Almost certainly crap.

 

 

No MCA on the list. They are "almost certainly crap" then...?

 

Personally I use Bilstein monotubes, Koni, Tokico and Ampco. Apparently only two of those brands are good. I may have a situation where the back half of one car is crap, and the front is good...

 

I know what he's saying (and what you're saying), but that article is about RACE dampers. We are not comparing like with like, are we? Many of the street and 'sport' dampers sold today are perfectly adequate for the use they will ultimately be put to. Let's face it, that's not going to be racing, is it? 



#16 Cozza

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 08:42 PM

I find the spec sheet a little hard to understand but the way I read it was that the shocks had only 10 steps of adjustment?


Gareth, check the text bottom right of the image, I think it suggests something along the lines of, 8 settings per rotation and 5 rotations.
The specs are definitely not straight forward, I'm still interested to hear other people's take on the info.
I find it interesting the rebound (growth) changes between 880 - 3550, where the bump (shrink) is 710 - 1160.

The Tokico Illuminas have 5 adjustment settings and I use most of them for driving on different roads and tracks. Softer settings are much better on rough surfaces, both road and track.
With my limited experience, I find my car feels better on the tighter tracks with harder settings and longer tracks with medium settings.

#17 Cozza

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:23 PM

I just read that link Jason posted and noticed a couple things that might be relevant to the specs above.

"you need as a minimum plots of the forces at slower speeds, around the 3 in/sec peak speed range. Plots of faster speeds are OK, but once you're over about 10 in/sec you're into "big bumps" mode and you're probably just digressing the hell out of the forces anyway."

The specs above are for 300mm/second which is close to 12"/second, a fair bit above his suggested speeds of interest.

Also, "Amazingly, save those brands mentioned in that earlier list, this was a non-stop parade of horror, including, but not limited to:
Adjusters that had more crosstalk effect than they had primary effect (ie, a rebound adjuster where 1 click made a 10% change in rebound and a 30% change in compression);

Adjusters that were nonlinear and exponential;"

The specs above are no where near linear and vary massively between the 2 modes.

Not trying to diss the Kameari shocks just picking up on some points that Jason's link commented on.

#18 260DET

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 08:14 AM

You appear to be lumping the generic 'Made In Taiwan' damper units (used by the likes of BC, et al) in with 'Made in Japan' damper units. Is that because they are all, er, 'asian' or something? 

 

 

According to FarNorthRacing:

 

 

No MCA on the list. They are "almost certainly crap" then...?

 

Personally I use Bilstein monotubes, Koni, Tokico and Ampco. Apparently only two of those brands are good. I may have a situation where the back half of one car is crap, and the front is good...

 

I know what he's saying (and what you're saying), but that article is about RACE dampers. We are not comparing like with like, are we? Many of the street and 'sport' dampers sold today are perfectly adequate for the use they will ultimately be put to. Let's face it, that's not going to be racing, is it? 

 It's a difficult subject to advise on so all I'm trying to do is to open it up a bit for discussion, by no means am I a damper guru. But any time I see the 40 adjustments thing it acts as a warning so my advice would be to avoid any such damper no matter where it is made or how it is branded. As for MCA not being on "the list" I doubt that the author would have even heard of them, they are a Aussie maker for the Aussie market and are well known and used by pros here.

 

I agree about the race thing to a degree but his comments about Bilsteins and Konis are applicable to street use too although I much prefer Bilsteins. And of course it may well be in certain circumstances that something like a Tein will do the job asked of it but why take the risk if something more reliable is available? Tricky subject.






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