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CAMS Australia and eligible parts for S30z's


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#21 Mike260LW

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 01:08 PM

I have a vested interest in these deliberations as, as some of you know, I am currently building an Sc car, however there are consistent mis-directions and redirection by contributors who are not fully conversant with the governing rules and ethos of this class of racing.  This is not a criticism, just an observation. I thought it would be beneficial to all participating in this thread, and particularly those not directly involved in the category or those from overseas familiar with different regulations, to go back to some first principles.  I have taken the liberty to edit out the non-pertinent waffle and also to underline some of the salient points.  Hope this helps us with our goal of identifying eligible parts for Group Sc - S30s.

From the Confederation of Australian Motorsport Manual:

“Groups S are designed to provide a forum for competitors to race production sports cars from the ’50s and ’60s (sometimes known as “Classic Sports Cars”), in a form similar to period club racing. Limited modifications as detailed in the regulations and defined in the Specification Sheet are allowed to these vehicles. Where performance-improving modifications are made, these should be of a period nature and not out of character with the vehicle or group period. To this extent, the modifications permitted are not intended to radically alter the individual vehicle’s character or appearance and will be of an improved performance road car nature, as opposed to making the vehicle totally dedicated to outright competition”.

Pertinent extracts from the Group S Competitors’ Club web page:

“While the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport details the general compliance requirements for Group S, much regarding its history and development has been lost. As a result, many misunderstandings about Group S have developed which confuse not only new entrants but also current competitors”.

(Historically) “Production sports car racing participants were largely owner-drivers who drove their road registered sports car to the track, removed items such as windscreens, bumper bars, and anything that could be easily unbolted, and replaced the road wheels with a set of wheels fitted with treaded racing tyres. At meet’s end, road wheels were refitted, windscreens and bumpers replaced and the cars driven home”…..  “The need to keep the cars in compliance with road registration requirements and to minimise cost ensured that modifications were limited, and largely confined to engine and suspension tuning”.
“Eligible marques for Group S have been decided by the Historic Commission on the basis of production runs and production specifications. FIA homologation is not a relevant factor and plays no part in the rules for Group S – a common misunderstanding.”

“There is also no nexus between Group S and Group N – another common misunderstanding. Each category is unique and has evolved in a different way to meet the needs of differing motor sport communities”.
“A further misunderstanding is that the compliance requirements of both Group S and Group N are similar. They are not because the starting points, concepts and culture of each historic motor sport group are different. Group N racing is meant to reflect the popular Appendix J racing of the period and its rules are based on the period rules. There were no equivalent Australia wide sports car rules of the period”.


#22 dat2kman

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:20 PM

Ot is what is within the Group S Specifation sheets, that is ultimately accepted, and approved, for this particular category of racing, only in Australia.

Over many years, many cars, have had written into the indivdual car specfication sheets, items that were "in period" but not part f a car, as it was produced, on a standard production line.

These were, and it had to be proven, "Optional Parts,", that were fitted by either a dealer, with no need for any approval by the manufacturer, or items as supplied by the manufacturer, in period, and then fitted to a new car.

As above, the "spirit" of the regulations, indicate that the cars could have, and ften were, driven to and from, a race meeting.
Today, this may have some imracticalties, but, the ability to be able to drive the car, with the "optional" parts fitted, on public roads, as a registered ( that term can be loosely interpreted) car.

Now to a specific car, the S30 Datsun Z, in 240/260/280 model only.
L series engine.( not a Z432 with S20 engine)

It has been well known that Nissan manufactured a certain number f the S30 body cars, for use on public roads, and these were registered for this purpose.
It is well known Nissan fitted many "optional" parts to these very cars, at a particular assembly plant in Japan.
It these facts that we can then present a case for the approval of items to be fitted to a S30 Datsun Z.
This meets the criteria as set down by CAMS.
It is up to the applcants to submit such nformation, with verifying documents.

It is also well known that Nissan supplied, without any restriction, to any customer, via their Dealership Spare Parts division, these very same "Option" parts, but, as yet, we have not been able to lcate evidence of the fitment of these parts to a new car, new being as a "sold car with items fitted by dealer, prior to customer taking delivery."

As above other car specification sheets under CAMS, have been updated, with items, some are dubious, some incredulous, some definately not as the car was ever produced by the manufacturer.
These have been to the advantage of the applicants.

It s Australia specific, the FIA Homologation papers are utilised as a guide and proof f manufacture and use of parts supplied by manufacturer, and for the S30 body Z, these parts are fully within the FIA papers.



#23 HS30-H

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:12 PM

I have a vested interest in these deliberations as, as some of you know, I am currently building an Sc car, however there are consistent mis-directions and redirection by contributors who are not fully conversant with the governing rules and ethos of this class of racing.  This is not a criticism, just an observation. I thought it would be beneficial to all participating in this thread, and particularly those not directly involved in the category or those from overseas familiar with different regulations, to go back to some first principles.


I've been trying to advocate "first principles" since I was first asked directly with regard to this topic (and that's possibly around two or three years ago now...). My advice was to thrash out EXACTLY what was required by the local/event/series organiser and sanctioning body. So far - and this may well indeed be because I'm from "overseas" - I can't even get my head fully around what the competitor(s) wants, let alone what they need to come up with to help them get that accepted...

So, as you're building an Sc class car, can you set out on this thread a clear explanation of any parts/specs that you'd like to use for your Sc, that you think you should be allowed to use, but can't due to the Sc regs?

And in the case of such parts/specs, what would you need in order to legalise them for use in Sc?   

#24 zed74

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:00 PM

I've been trying to advocate "first principles" since I was first asked directly with regard to this topic (and that's possibly around two or three years ago now...). My advice was to thrash out EXACTLY what was required by the local/event/series organiser and sanctioning body. So far - and this may well indeed be because I'm from "overseas" - I can't even get my head fully around what the competitor(s) wants, let alone what they need to come up with to help them get that accepted...

So, as you're building an Sc class car, can you set out on this thread a clear explanation of any parts/specs that you'd like to use for your Sc, that you think you should be allowed to use, but can't due to the Sc regs?

And in the case of such parts/specs, what would you need in order to legalise them for use in Sc? 


Hi Alan,

I am sure Mike's list will include...
Close ratio gearsets
7/8inch wheels in either 14 or 15 inch
Triple carbs (solex/weber etc)

Justifying the legality is he main issue...but in keeping with the original intent of Group Sc you would think they are "typical" period performance mods that hopefully can be demonstrated in some way :)

#25 HS30-H

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:02 PM

Justifying the legality is he main issue...but in keeping with the original intent of Group Sc you would think they are "typical" period performance mods that hopefully can be demonstrated in some way :)


My - "overseas" - take on it all would be that pretty much anything demonstrably used 'in period' should be within the spirit of the rules, but on a case-by-case basis. But then it's not me you need to convince...

Can we clarify, what is the cut-off date/period for 'period performance mods' in Sc please?

Supplementary question: Is one of the problems here the fact that Group Sc is concerned with "50s and 60s" cars as per Mike260LW's quote from the CAMS manual? Over there in the UK when the HSCC's 'Historic Roadsports' category was initially set up, they would only allow 240Zs that had been built in 1969 to compete (they had a pre-1970 cut-off) which was a bit ridiculous and was eventually relaxed. 



 

#26 dat2kman

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 11:08 PM

Cut ff date for Group S is December 1976.
z cars have been given 15" diam rims, now.
Close ratio gearsets application s not necersary, we are allowed " Free internals to gearbox"

What we requires MK63 Calipers on vented rotors
7" rims. (8's and 10's are FIA Homologated for Group 4 only, not allowed)
Triple Mikuni carburettors.

No need for anything else, although lightwright fibreglass hanging panels would be nice, we already have pladtic side and rear windows

Overseas refers to MSNZ ( MotorSport New Zealand,) and SCCA ( USA) both f which allow option parts as available within period, to be fitted.

A 280Z factory fitted with fuel injection ( standard) it would need to be shown that a 280Z with Triple Mikunis, was built by a assembly plant at Nissan Japan, for use on publc roads ( a rally car) with triple mikunis, otherwise any 280Z will be at a distinct disadvantage.

When did Nissan cease to assemble the road registered rally cars?

#27 260DET

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:15 PM

Going by the rules and the various precedents set by allowing certain improved parts for other cars as already mentioned, to put up a persuasive proposition seems straight forward to me. Basically it requires original and official paperwork listing improved parts that were sold fitted to a new S30 by a dealer. It really can be that simple.

Must say though that it seems a bit strange to be going over this stuff in 2015 and still nothing has been accomplished, particularly considering the number of Sc S30's that must have been built over the years, with I assume some intention to try to win races rather than just act as cannon fodder. A lot of money too but apparently none actually spent on satisfying the invitation the rules offer to facilitate the building of a better car. Obviously the euro boys have not taken such a casual approach to racing their cars.

                     

#28 dat2kman

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:32 AM

Going by the rules and the various precedents set by allowing certain improved parts for other cars as already mentioned, to put up a persuasive proposition seems straight forward to me. Basically it requires original and official paperwork listing improved parts that were sold fitted to a new S30 by a dealer. It really can be that simple.

Must say though that it seems a bit strange to be going over this stuff in 2015 and still nothing has been accomplished, particularly considering the number of Sc S30's that must have been built over the years, with I assume some intention to try to win races rather than just act as cannon fodder. A lot of money too but apparently none actually spent on satisfying the invitation the rules offer to facilitate the building of a better car. Obviously the euro boys have not taken such a casual approach to racing their cars.

                   

Bruce Richards has stated that "either supplied and fitted, by a dealer, or, supplied and fitted by Nissan in Japan"
And " the cars must have been for public roads use, not Group 4 circuit race competition specials"

Due to there only being, on an annual basis, very few Z cars being raced, by hobbyist enthusiasts, who tend to just simply accept the regulations laid down, without any knowledge of what Nissan built, these hobby racers did not bother pursuing anything, and subsequently, the 2 or 3 Datsun Z cars, that regularly appear at Historic meets, run around behind the cars that have got the advantages.

Unlike The Morgan Motor Company, manufacturer of Morgan cars, who wrote out a brief single page, on company letterhead letter, that items X,X,X &X were fitted to new cars, none of us Datsun Z users have knowledge of who to contact at Nissan, that is able to understand what we are trying to achieve.

I certainly do not know anyone at Nissan. Six years ago, i was given an email address of a chap at Nismo, and introduced myself as a visitor to Japan, wherein I was escorted through their workshop, offered a GTR35 to purchase, and then escorted through Nissans Zama storage facilty.
Upon asking the chap at Nismo, he explained he was not able to assist in confirming what Nissan fitted to new cars way back then, nor could he point me in right direction.

Yes, I, and two others have been tackling this for over 6 years, to the point where the Head of CAMS Historic Elegibility, has practically told us to keep whatever we can get as simple as possible, and he gave me a copy of the single page letter from Morgan Car Company, and said, "like this!"

Now, who can point me to an email contact at Nissan, that we can ask to write out a single page letter, that simply states:

Nissan built xx no of Datsun S30 Z cars,  from year to year,
fitted with X, X, X & X.
Their japanese registration plates were, TKS xx xxx, etc etc
These cars were exported and used in Australia, Europe, Africa and the UK.
Signed,,,,,,,
Nissan Japan.

And that, in a nutshell, is what is required

#29 luvemfast

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:41 AM

Would anyone in the USA know who could supply this information?

#30 gav240z

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:44 AM

Would anyone in the USA know who could supply this information?


I would think Carl Beck of Zhome.com would know a lot about US market cars and dealer fitted options.

#31 dat2kman

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 10:02 AM

Over the years, I and others with Gp S Datsuns have made contact with Carl Beck, and others in the US, including some of the purchasers and the winner of the Datsun Z Pace Cars ( these were just painted up dealer stock moving mules)
It was in the US we discovered the large numbers of gentleman racers would buy a car new, trot next door to spares, fill the boot full of goodies, go home, fit, then go race in SCCA sanctioned events as Prod Stock.

As yet, and going by Carl Becks replies, not one Datsun dealer, as far as anyone knows, ever fitted the option parts to a new car, specifically for a customer, at customer request.

This is what has to have occured, to satisfy CAMS Austealia, no matter if in USA

We live in hope, that maybe one day, will appear, a set f Sales Dockets, from some however bscure, dealer, who did this, for his customer.
One day, these papers may just happen to turn up,,,,,, one day!

#32 260DET

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 11:10 AM

There is enough anecdotal evidence around to indicate that some dealers did fit wide mag wheels from new, all that is needed is one invoice giving details of the width of such wheels. But for most owners of such paperwork now there is a value attached and rightly so, which is why I suggested raising a fund so that a wanted advert could be posted in likely forums. Plus you never know what else of use may surface.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and it seems to me that wheel width is one of the most important equalisers Sc S30's would benefit from.

#33 gav240z

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 11:23 AM

Captain Obvious here, but have you not tried to ask for such information on Classizcars.com? You could sweeten the deal by doing something for them in return? They always want AU market parts... for example. Even though they call them 'euro' spec. :)

#34 dat2kman

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 11:40 AM

We need the brakes more than anything, but yes a rim from 6 to a 7 is a slight help.
Triple mikunis are needed to compete against these, in the German cars.

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#35 hmd

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 11:57 AM


Better brakes and 225/50/15 tyres.

Need to prove factory options.

Lots of politics involved not as simple as it seems.

#36 d3c0y

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 12:41 PM

Surely at some point CAMs will have to acknowledge the fact that 40 year old paper work is just not viable to produce anymore.

#37 dat2kman

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 04:35 PM

Better brakes and 225/50/15 tyres.

Need to prove factory options.

Lots of politics involved not as simple as it seems.

Unless that size tyre was detailed, and fitted to a new car, it will not be accepted.
Certain German cars from their factory in Stitgart, only had 6&7" rims, with a e ER70x15 tyre fitted, new.
A dealer, in Australia, apparently, offered, and sold, the same new car, with a 7&8" rim, and 225/50x15 tyre, in mid 1970's.
Interestingly, in mid 1970's, same era, that size tyre did not exist, ie the designation f 225/50, it would have been the old fadhioned terminology, ie ER, BR, etc, the then "gun" tyre were Dunlop SP Sport, r a Uniroyal, the lowest aspect ratio was a 60% aspect, not 50%. We are talking 1974-1976 era!, majority on here were babies then!

We can certainly prove the period factory options, just jeed to get it in writing that they were fitted to newly built cars, by the manufacturer, at their factory, and that the cars were fully compliant for road registration, and supplied as such!

Yes, getting someone to remember what was done 35-40 years ago, can be an issue, however, quite a few have managed to obtain same, and they have geen accepted.

Does anyone know a pissible contact at Nissan Japan, that we may approach, in this regard?
The CAMS Historic Elegibility Chairman is still waiting for the information.

#38 d3c0y

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:29 PM

FIA Docs supplied by Jason

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#39 Mike260LW

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 05:38 PM

Agree with Jason 100% - better brakes are the real need.  Things like triples would be nice but guys are making good horsepower on twin Hitachi.

My - "overseas" - take on it all would be that pretty much anything demonstrably used 'in period' should be within the spirit of the rules, but on a case-by-case basis. But then it's not me you need to convince...

Can we clarify, what is the cut-off date/period for 'period performance mods' in Sc please?

Supplementary question: Is one of the problems here the fact that Group Sc is concerned with "50s and 60s" cars as per Mike260LW's quote from the CAMS manual? Over there in the UK when the HSCC's 'Historic Roadsports' category was initially set up, they would only allow 240Zs that had been built in 1969 to compete (they had a pre-1970 cut-off) which was a bit ridiculous and was eventually relaxed. 


Alan, you are on the money here.  The S30 would be a far more competitive Sb car than Sc.  The reality is if you want to win in Sc you wouldn't start with a Zed! It seems to me the European Historic Motorsport scene is a little more enlightened when it comes to period modifications, particularly in respect to safety.  And that is the issue; the L26 is now producing double the horespower thanks to modern metallurgy, lubricants and 40 years of development.  My own questioning of the powers that be around "what about better brakes?" was responded to with a "you'll just have to drive it within the capabilities of the car" answer. Thanks, I'll try to remember that!



#40 dat2kman

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 06:54 PM

For Alan in the UK, a FYI,
In Australia Historic Group Sb is for cars suuplied, sold, or registered for public road use, up to december 31st 1969

Group Sc is for ditto, but period January 1st 1970 to December 31st 1976

We have tried the submission that Datsun 240Z is a Sb car, but the powers that be did not agree to that at all.




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