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CAMS Australia and eligible parts for S30z's


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#1 dat2kman

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 09:56 AM

Any specifications on the rims that were used on the various Works cars?
In both dirt and tarmac events?
Pictures of the various types?
Above pic looks to be a alloy type rim, with an amount of negative offsett
What tyre sizes were used?

Gav mentioned a brand/style of a rim recently?

#2 gav240z

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 12:05 PM

I've emailed Alan some of the questions from the thread, i'm enjoying the story and the mystery!


Yep me too, I really think this thread would be even more awesome with more photos of these cars at the time.

Any specifications on the rims that were used on the various Works cars?
In both dirt and tarmac events?
Pictures of the various types?
Above pic looks to be a alloy type rim, with an amount of negative offsett
What tyre sizes were used?

Gav mentioned a brand/style of a rim recently?


Kobe Seiko wheels.. I believe the 432s were fitted with this 'style' of wheel. However there is quite a few subtle differences between the wheels used on the Rally cars and the 432s and I believe (open to correction from Alan) that the rally or works cars had a wider version of this wheel also.

*Edit to quote Alan...

http://www.classiczc...-ebay/?p=384305
The KS 'Rally' wheels were never sold to the general public. If you own a set, then you own something that was almost certainly used in period by Nissan's works rally team on a works rally Z. You own a piece of Z competition history.


More info on them here (I think the only way to get them now is buy replica's which are seldom produced).
http://www.classiczc...ye-wheels-ebay/

Portuguese market S30z's (which were HLS30 prefixed) were sold new with them for whatever reason - perhaps to appear more upmarket to that market?

http://www.classiczc...0z-in-portugal/
http://www.classiczc...gnesium-wheels/

On this 'mockup' 432-R you can see them also. (likely copies)
http://www.7tune.com...irlady-zed-432r



#3 dat2kman

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 09:15 PM

Gav, re the KS Rallye rims.
We are not required to use the exact wheel, we can se any wheel, the important bit is that they were 7" wide, and were fitted to cars by Nissan Japan, for use as registered cars on public roads.

The Z's have been given the OK to run either 14" or 15" due to Control tyre availability.
There is benefit to the Z's in Group S, to be allowed a 7" width, over a currently allowed 6" width rim, yes they only came with 5" but we run 6", as do all other Group S cars on 14" diam rims

Have you found any factory produced, or manufacturer produced documentation that details the rim specifications, and has images of, of the KS Rallye 7"?

#4 gav240z

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:12 AM

Have you found any factory produced, or manufacturer produced documentation that details the rim specifications, and has images of, of the KS Rallye 7"?


If you go back to the links I posted where Alan has commented on these wheels before on Classiczcars.com he mentioned that the KS Rally wheel was not available to the public.  Fully quote below.

It's hard to beat the pedigree of the Kobe Seiko manufactured Nissan works 'Rally' wheels in terms of relevance to the S30-series Z.

Designed by Nissan staff expressly for competition use, manufactured by a company with a long history in magnesium wheel manufacture ( they were making them during the Pacific War period for Japanese imperial army and navy aircraft ) and quite likely the very first competition wheel used in anger by an S30-series Z.

I have a main undercarriage wheel from a Ki-43 Nakajima 'Hayabusa' in my collection, and it's fascinating to think that this piece of war materiel was manufactured by the same company which cast and machined the wheels on my 432R replica project car some 30 years later.

The KS 'Rally' wheels were never sold to the general public. If you own a set, then you own something that was almost certainly used in period by Nissan's works rally team on a works rally Z. You own a piece of Z competition history.


So it looks like you're out of luck on that...

#5 gav240z

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:29 AM

So it looks like you're out of luck on that...


Well.... maybe not. I believe the 432-Rs (PS30-SB) cars were fitted with Kobe Seiko wheels or at least had the option? As to what sizes I don't know? But... I'm lead to believe from what I have researched that the 432-R was not available to the public directly, rather it was available to privateers? Not joe public..

I don't know if that is where the rules get rubbery or not? A few reference photos of PS30-SBs (not sure if Genuine) but look legit.
Posted Image
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I can hear the right click save as... from here.

This car looks like it could be a mockup..wheels look more narrow spec.
Posted Image

and since it seems relevant to ask here, I noticed that the Ikeda Bussan seats seem to come in a variety of trims.
This looks re-trimmed.
Posted Image
A blue colour?
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Kevin Bristow's Works 240z (ref: http://www.autotrade...ion-55346.xhtml)
It has more of that 'office furniture look' than the other examples above.
Posted Image

This is another reason I'm curious to see more photos of TKS 33 SU 4080 at the time, particularly the interior. Of course, that's just 1 detail that interests me. But I came across those photos whilst pulling out the 432-R stuff.

#6 dat2kman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:42 AM

Gav, no, we are in luck!
They were fitted to cars built by Nissan for use on publc roads as road registered vehicles.
This is the crux of the ssue.
These rims were fitted onto brand new cars.!
Thats the important bit!
And that is what we need.
It is a And/Or situation as far as CAMS Elegibility is concerned

We do not HAVE to run the KS Rallye rim, or a replica of it, we can run any style rim, in ProdSports Group S!
It had a 7", we can run a 7", we jst need to show this.

The links you pisted just had comments on other forums about these rims, but nothing to show information and specifications on the two versions they used, from either the maker, or Nissan.

Jake, when you see Al Stean, can you get some pics of the rims, holding a inches ruler to them to show width?
Alan may he able to confirm what they had on the cars when they arrived, but that is not of sufficient authourity. It needs to come from Nissan!
He may still have a contact or two in Japan, that we can inturn get in touch with?

#7 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:26 AM

This thread is turning too busy for me. It's going to be like herding cats before this page is out I fear. We are already discussing the different shades of upholstery fabric used on Ikeda Bussan seats (for the record Gav, there were at least four different shades ranging from light blue-grey, mid blue-grey, dark blue-grey through to dark grey...).

I went up into the loft and pulled some wheels out to photograph and measure. Not that it'll do any good, because this data "has to come from Nissan" (and I am back to square one wondering why the people who need the data "from Nissan" aren't in contact with Nissan and asking for it from Nissan...) but what the hell, eh?

Hopefully the captions will be self-explanatory:

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#8 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:57 AM

Well.... maybe not. I believe the 432-Rs (PS30-SB) cars were fitted with Kobe Seiko wheels or at least had the option? As to what sizes I don't know? But... I'm lead to believe from what I have researched that the 432-R was not available to the public directly, rather it was available to privateers? Not joe public..


Gav,
Look, it's really simple. I'll try to explain it for you as succinctly as I can:

Standard wheel fitment on the 'PS30' Fairlady Z432 was the 5.5j x 14" Kobe Seiko '432' magnesium wheel. It's easy to spot them as they had a raised centre casting which carried a cap secured by two screws. See photos above.

Standard wheel fitment on the 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R was the 4.5j x 14" TOPY steel wheel. The cars were supplied with these because customers were expected to fit race wheels (and - more importantly - race tyres) of their choice. You'll see pictures of Nissan's most famous works 432-R (the no.68 race numbered car which was the first S30-series Z to take part in competition anywhere in the world) running on the 7j x 14" Kobe Seiko Nissan works 'Rally' mag wheels. They used these for a couple of races before they switched to the 8j and 10j x 14" Kobe Seiko 8-spoke mags as seen in the Sports Options lists, to be combined with the just-homologated works and Sports Option 432-R overfenders.
If you see photos of 432-Rs running on the KS works Rally mags then they are - like me - just copying that no.68 race car and the couple of cars that also raced on the Rally mags in period. The Rally mags were not standard or Option equipment for the 432 or 432-R....

Kobe Seiko made - at Nissan's request - a version of the '432' mag to be used on the works Violet rally cars. It's similar in casting design to the '432' mag, but it didn't have the raised centre for the wheel trim cap. These were never sold to the general public. See above photos.

Nissan also asked Kobe Seiko to make a special wheel for the works 240Z rally cars. Size was 7j x 14" (with some super rare early ones in 6j x 14" for use in snow). It was similar looking to the '432' mag, but actually a fundamentally different casting design. Compare the photos above, paying close attention to the shapes of the 'spokes'. It's not just that the 'spokes' are open on the rally mag and closed on the 432 mag. It's much more than that. They are completely different patterns. These wheels were never sold to the general public.

Lastly, when all the fuss had died down in the early 1980s, Kobe Seiko revived the '432' wheel design and re-jigged it slightly. They called them the 'Maglloy' (note the double L) and sold them to the general public. They can still be found used. Nice wheels, super light and excellent quality.

If there's anything I haven't explained properly, please ask again and I'll try to clarify...       


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#9 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:03 AM

The links you pisted just had comments on other forums about these rims, but nothing to show information and specifications on the two versions they used, from either the maker, or Nissan.


That's because they were never sold to the general public. It's nobodies business but Kobe Seiko and Nissan's.

If you think you'll get any spec details on these wheels from Nissan or from Kobe Seiko then I wish you luck and won't hold my breath. I have a friend who worked for Kobe Seiko in a management position until relatively recently. I asked him if KS would be able to supply any data (I was working on a Rally mag replica project at the time) and he came back after a while with "no chance"....

#10 Mr Camouflage

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:17 AM

Two different discussions going on in this thread. Maybe all the CAMS talk needs to be split off into a new topic.

Re: CAMS wheel requirements, best chance is trying to find an owner in Spain that has the original sales papers and hope they list the wheels on there, since by what i've read they (Kobe Seiko mags) were fitted as standard to Zs sold in Spain.  Or USA Dealership sales papers, like the ones I linked earlier (from a car on eBay) that list the type and size of the mags US dealers fitted.

You'd need to start on one of the international forums.


#11 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:23 AM

Re: CAMS wheel requirements, best chance is trying to find an owner in Spain that has the original sales papers and hope they list the wheels on there, since by what i've read they (Kobe Seiko mags) were fitted as standard to Zs sold in Spain.


It was actually Portugal, and the mags in question were the '432' type. That means 5.5j x 14".

The 7j x 14" Rally mags were never sold to the general public, and never fitted to any cars that were sold new to the general public as OEM equipment (and would have been technically illegal to use on the road in Japan because they were not tested and certificated like the '432' mags and the KS 'Maglloy' wheels were).

#12 Mr Camouflage

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:54 AM

It was actually Portugal, and the mags in question were the '432' type. That means 5.5j x 14".


Quite right, came back to edit, but you beat me to it.


#13 gav240z

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:34 AM

This thread is turning too busy for me. It's going to be like herding cats before this page is out I fear.


Yeah I'll take some responsibility for that, let me split this topic into 2 threads. Just gotta sit down and decide which posts to move etc..

*Edit- original thread discussing Works Rally S30z's in Australia is here:
http://www.viczcar.c...ic,15844.0.html

#14 260DET

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:35 AM

Perhaps a sticky thread on the S30 CAMS eligibility topic could be created? The subject comes up regularly and what is happening is a lot of repetition over time plus, perhaps, the loss of some vital information.

On that topic it should be kept in mind that a potentially effective submission re CAMS may contain not just one but several 'pieces of paper' so in that case could someone who is in contact with Alan Stein get him to write down his recollections on the topic to eventually be typed up on his letterhead and be signed by him? Or would a Statutory Declaration be better?

#15 d3c0y

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:43 AM

This is another reason I'm curious to see more photos of TKS 33 SU 4080 at the time, particularly the interior. Of course, that's just 1 detail that interests me. But I came across those photos whilst pulling out the 432-R stuff.



After the info that i presented, referring to a car as TKS 33 SU 4080 while it was located in Australia is completely flawed. You will be looking a several cars over several years that are both potentially 240 and 260Zs!


I think on the CAMs wheel route there is a much simpler answer to all these exotic wheels. I'm pretty sure cars in Australia and the USA were sold by dealers with 14x7" 0J jelly beans fitted. My car originally had them along with many others I have seen pictures of.


As seen here:http://www.rmauction...un-240z/1057114




#16 dat2kman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:04 PM

This thread is turning too busy for me. It's going to be like herding cats before this page is out I fear. We are already discussing the different shades of upholstery fabric used on Ikeda Bussan seats (for the record Gav, there were at least four different shades ranging from light blue-grey, mid blue-grey, dark blue-grey through to dark grey...).

I went up into the loft and pulled some wheels out to photograph and measure. Not that it'll do any good, because this data "has to come from Nissan" (and I am back to square one wondering why the people who need the data "from Nissan" aren't in contact with Nissan and asking for it from Nissan...) but what the hell, eh?



Thank you for the pics of the 7" rims
Quite clear to see these fitted to many of the road registered cars, supplied by Nissan, new, going by the quite obvious wider outside rim lip of the 7" ones.
The pic f Dunko's car back a couple pages, clearly shows the wider lip, and the more "filled" out guard, by the tyre.

You say contact Nissan?
Who at Nissan in Japan do we contact?
What, just send an email to " contact us" on their website?
Tried, no success.
I reckon we need someone who has been at Nissan for quite some time, and will recall the cars that were built, and can confirm.
Who can you suggest, Alan?
Can we have a few names. Their depart,ents, email addresses?

I am quite happy to "write" a statement, all we need is it be rewritten on Nissan letterhead, signed, and sent back.
Couldn't be hard!

*Edited to fix quoting.


#17 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:34 PM

Thank you for the pics of the 7" rims
Quite clear to see these fitted to many of the road registered cars, supplied by Nissan, new, going by the quite obvious wider outside rim lip of the 7" ones.


(My emphasis in bold there)

That's the trouble though. They were not "supplied by Nissan, new...". They belonged to Nissan, and were used by Nissan. There's a whole gulf in between.

If anything merely owned and used by an automobile manufacturer (various test cars and pre-production mules, for instance) legalised certain cars and parts for use in competition, it would be chaos. I think that's what local, national and international motorsport governing bodies are trying to guard against. 

#18 dat2kman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:43 PM

Alan, i, and I assume many others, were nder the impression, that from around 1970 to around 1975? These cars were buiot at a Nissan facility, if this s so, we do have a case to ge able to be put forward.

There is a stipulation that they cannot have been built purely for Group 4 ( circuit racing) competition, under FIA, but, the cars mst have been registered for use on publc roads, with the particular parts, that we are seeking the approvals for.


We are also putting forward the safety aspect, in regard to the brakes, and can show failure of components, and that there were parts from Options lists fitted to new cars, that we will have to contend that Nissan were aware that the standard components may have been lacking if their cars were driven in an extreme manner.

In the discussion so far, I have read that there was a number f production S30 bdied cars so
D in Portugal, that did have various items fitted, compared to a standard car, in order to secure sales?
Is this true? How do we establsh what was the specification f these cars, and what parts were fitted?

Our governing body here in Aus, will acdept evidence from any market, Portugal, UK, South Africa etc.
Is there any ability to establish what the UK dealer in woking? Did to the cars he recieved, and were then subsequently used ( no need for them to have been sold!) on publc roads in UK and Europe?
From what years did this occur until, as I assume the S30 bodied 280Z may uave been dealt with in md 1970's?
Thank you for any assistance you can provide!

#19 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:35 PM

Alan, i, and I assume many others, were nder the impression, that from around 1970 to around 1975? These cars were buiot at a Nissan facility, if this s so, we do have a case to ge able to be put forward.


Nissan's works 240Z and 260Z rally cars were built at Nissan's competitions workshop at the Oppama plant. Main production of S30-series Zs for sale to the general public took place at Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant.

There is a stipulation that they cannot have been built purely for Group 4 ( circuit racing) competition, under FIA, but, the cars mst have been registered for use on publc roads, with the particular parts, that we are seeking the approvals for.


The majority of Nissan's works 240Z rally cars were built to Group 3 rules, as per the main part of the FIA 3023 homologation. Later, parts were added to the 3023 homologation for Group 4, but cars were allowed entry to certain events in certain specs at the discretion of the organisers and organising/sanctioning bodies. It starts to get complicated when you try to dissect it all. 

We are also putting forward the safety aspect, in regard to the brakes, and can show failure of components, and that there were parts from Options lists fitted to new cars, that we will have to contend that Nissan were aware that the standard components may have been lacking if their cars were driven in an extreme manner.


The "standard components may have been lacking" bit is one of the angles of your argument that I don't agree with. This is what the homologation of competition-specific parts was all about. It doesn't mean the standard road cars were lacking as standard road cars, it means they could be - and were allowed to be, by the homologation process - up-specced for competition use. This is no different than any other manufacturer's cars in the period. 

In the discussion so far, I have read that there was a number f production S30 bdied cars so
D in Portugal, that did have various items fitted, compared to a standard car, in order to secure sales?
Is this true? How do we establsh what was the specification f these cars, and what parts were fitted?


The Portuguese market 240Zs (imported and sold by Nissan's Portuguese concessionaire Entreposto) were fitted with the same Kobe Seiko wheels as the Japanese market PS30 Fairlady Z432 model. That means 5.5j x 14", and - as far as I can see - that's a dead end as far as your CAMS lobbying is concerned. In all other respects the Entreposto cars were the same spec as contemporary Australian, NZ and UK market RHD cars. It was just the wheels that were different, and the fact that they were LHD. 

Our governing body here in Aus, will acdept evidence from any market, Portugal, UK, South Africa etc.
Is there any ability to establish what the UK dealer in woking? Did to the cars he recieved, and were then subsequently used ( no need for them to have been sold!) on publc roads in UK and Europe?
From what years did this occur until, as I assume the S30 bodied 280Z may uave been dealt with in md 1970's?
Thank you for any assistance you can provide!


Old Woking Service Station Ltd. was dissolved as a business many years ago. I am friends with the family. They did not sell any modified / up-specced 240Zs or 260Zs. Nissan used the OWSS premises and workshops as a de-facto base for the competitions department when they were operating in the UK and Europe, but none of the Nissan works cars actually belonged to OWSS when they were on their carnet license plates and carnet paperwork. The cars arrived from Japan fully built, and OWSS looked after them / repaired them / serviced them on events and looked after a lot of the logistics and in-field work involved in running the cars in Europe. In my opinion (I'm biased...) this was a big job being done - at very little advantage to them - by a relatively small outfit. I have nothing but admiration and respect for them. However, I think you are barking up the wrong tree in thinking that it may help your CAMS lobbying as the situation with OWSS is really no different to the works cars being anywhere else (France, Belgium, Holland,Portugal, South Africa and Australia for example). 

OWSS were involved in running the works cars from late 1969 (with a 510) until around 1974-ish. They did not get involved with S30-series 280Zs, Nissan never built any as rally cars  and none were officially imported to the UK as new cars anyway.   


#20 260DET

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 08:07 AM

Agree with d3cOy that the best line of attack is to look for original paperwork listing larger aftermarket wheels on a S30 sold by a dealer. There is little doubt in my mind that such sales occurred, just the other day I saw a pic of a rusty very original looking US 240Z complete with faded sill stripes like the US dealers used to fit and oversize jelly bean wheels.

If we want to get serious I suggest raising a fund to purchase useful papers and spread the word as to what we are looking for. It's of no benefit to me but I promise $20 to help get it started. Here is a project for you Jason.




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