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Ross Dunkerton and Datsun in Australia


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#61 d3c0y

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:17 PM

[quote name="HS30-H" post="167690" timestamp="1429259185"]
The bit of that I don't agree with is with regard to 'TKS 33 SU 4080' when it was first built, and when it first arrived in Australia to take part in the 1973 Southern Cross. I'm pretty sure it was still essentially the same car (same bodyshell, mostly the same works components) when it took part in the 1974 Southern Cross too, so anything it did in between was likely to be covered by that also.[/Quote]


Obviously some photos of the car are going to be the chassis number we refer to as 4080. If it was the premier car, you would expect it at the big events.
That wasn't the point of my comment and you usually demand this level of accuracy when referring to historic Zs.

[quote author=HS30-H link=topic=15844.msg167690#msg167690 date=1429259185]
But after the first year its carnet would have run out, and it should have lost its '4080' plates and been put onto a local Australian registration. It's here that things start getting a little grey...[/quote]
I agree i will try to clarify this, I'll probably just ask Ross this one direct. I should be able to get his contact details.


[quote author=HS30-H link=topic=15844.msg167690#msg167690 date=1429259185]
Your source says that license plates (and - therefore - identity papers and logbooks) were swapped around will-nilly according to convenience. There's no doubt that this happened in period, but - in my experience - it happened rather less with the works rally 240Zs and 260Zs than it did - say - with Ford Escorts, Minis and various Vauxhalls etc. The reason it happened less with the works Zs is that there were far fewer of them in-country at one time, far fewer 'civilian' non-works versions in the mix, and not enough componentry / know-how to build up an accurate clone and have the spares to run it properly.


The plate / identity swapping story also comes up another slight snag. Just how many works rally 240Zs were in Australia at any one period of time? Count them: There's not that many. What do we have, five cars at the most? I make it 3 LHD cars and 2 RHD, so that cuts down the possible plate-swapping permutations too.[/Quote]


As Jason said, these were the guys that could do it if anyone could and that is enough cars to do it. Were all works cars that came to Australia registered in Japan and over on carnets?


[quote author=HS30-H link=topic=15844.msg167690#msg167690 date=1429259185]
As I've mentioned previously in this thread, the car I see driven by Dunkerton on the events in the '76 Australian championship looks to me to have some characteristics of '4080'. For a start it's LHD. If it's not the old '4080' and Dunkerton built a new car, then why LHD? I also see it being referred to as a '260Z'. As far as I can see, Nissan didn't use any works 260Zs in Australia (?) so I don't think it's a works 260Z wearing the old '4080' plates (and why would that be done anyway?). It was quite common for people to re-name a 240Z as a 260Z if they upped the capacity or just wanted to sound more up to date (240Z having finished production in late 1973) and this is exactly what happened with the Le Mans 24hrs car: In 1975 it was called a '240Z' and in 1976 it was called a '260Z', but it was the same car. I don't necessarily trust the car being called a '260Z' unless I see more evidence that points that way.     
Anybody here think they know of any more than that? If you're going to research it, please don't use zhome or z-point as your main points of reference as they are peppered with mistakes. Multiple cross-referencing is advised.

Has anybody tried to talk to Joe Gilbert about any of this? Is he still with us? 
[/quote]


I'm working on it, i will have more info tomorrow hopefully.[/quote][/quote]

#62 HS30-H

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 11:33 PM

Obviously some photos of the car are going to be the chassis number we refer to as 4080. If it was the premier car, you would expect it at the big events.
That wasn't the point of my comment and you usually demand this level of accuracy when referring to historic Zs.
I agree i will try to clarify this, I'll probably just ask Ross this one direct. I should be able to get his contact details.


Apologies, but I don't follow your comments about "the premier car" and "the big events"?

The point I was making is that I have no doubt the original LHD works 240Z 'TKS 33 SU 4080' (one of a batch of cars built for the 1973 RAC Rally) was diverted to Australia to be used by Tony Fall on the 1973 Southern Cross. And I reckon (from what I can see) the same LHD works 240Z stayed on in Australia after the '73 Southern Cross and was used on the '74 Southern Cross by Dunkerton. That sets up a Dunkerton connection with the car, and leads me to suspect that it was the same car - maybe rebuilt/modified, but still on the same LHD works 'shell - that he used on the '76 Australian championship. If some of the parts from '4080' had simply been used to build a fresh rally car based on a standard road 'shell, then why choose an LHD 'shell and where would that have come from?

I think the fact that Dunkerton's '76 championship car was LHD makes it more likely that it was the original '4080'.

And we haven't really addressed the implications/reason for putting the '4080' license plate on the front of the '76 championship car either. As explained and discussed, '4080's' carnet would have run out by '75 let alone '76. The number couldn't be used legally on a car in Australia in 1976, full stop. So why was it on the front of the '76 championship car? Likely it was to back-up the paperwork/logbook of the car (as was done with the '75 Le Mans 24hrs car, where a Japanese carnet license plate from an LHD works rally car was stuck on the back of an RHD ex-works circuit race car in order to back up the fake identity of the car, and help ease any possibility of ineligibility) and if Mr Dunkerton is willing to tell us the whole truth about '4080' then I'll be very interested to hear it.       

As Jason said, these were the guys that could do it if anyone could and that is enough cars to do it. Were all works cars that came to Australia registered in Japan and over on carnets?


All the works 240Zs would have to have been on carnets, yes. They would have been registered for road use in Japan first, then issued the carnet-linked 'translated' license plates. If they were sent to Australia without Japanese road registration and license plates, they would have needed to be registered in Australia either as 'new' cars or as previously unregistered used cars. A logistical nightmare. 





#63 gav240z

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 06:26 PM

Since this thread has Work's Rally Cars in Australia featured in it, I thought this link would be useful.
http://primotipo.com/tag/datsun-240z/

Posted Image
Caption reads:
Edgar Hermanns’ factory Datsun 240Z, the Japanese factory a big supporter of Australian Rallying for a decade or so. Navigator Roger Bonhomme. Here the car is being serviced at the Mt Ginn stage outside Canberra. (Green Machine)

Posted Image
Hermann and Brock had fun, the 240Z in front of Peters’ Holden Torana XU-1. Torana like the Capri, a versatile car at home on track or trail.Winner of both the Australian Rally Championship (Bond) and Bathurst 500 (Brock). Mt Ginn, Canberra. (Green Machine)

When I first saw the photo I was hoping it was Dunkerton's TKS 33 SA 4080 car and I thought it was photos of the rear of the car, but it's obviously a different car that also competed in Australia. 

#64 HS30-H

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 11:16 PM

Posted Image
Caption reads:
Edgar Hermanns’ factory Datsun 240Z, the Japanese factory a big supporter of Australian Rallying for a decade or so. Navigator Roger Bonhomme. Here the car is being serviced at the Mt Ginn stage outside Canberra. (Green Machine)

When I first saw the photo I was hoping it was Dunkerton's TKS 33 SA 4080 car and I thought it was photos of the rear of the car, but it's obviously a different car that also competed in Australia.


Nice photo.

'TKS 33 SA 8075' was an HS30-prefixed RHD works car first used by Rauno Aaltonen and Steve Halloran on the 1972 Southern Cross.

It stayed in Australia after the Southern Cross, and Edgard Herrmann and Roger Bonhomme used it on the 1972 Dulux International Rally, which is where that photo was taken. Car was running ECGI injection, and was apparently having some fuel starvation issues during the event.

I don't believe it stayed in Australia after that.

 
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#65 chris240

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 09:58 AM

Heap of articles here. Combined search of The Canberra Times (newspaper) and National library of Aust.

http://trove.nla.gov...=Dunkerton 240z


#66 bluerat

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 12:47 PM

Just dragged out the '74 Competition Yearbook and there is a photo of 8075 competing in the first round of the 73 ARC where it ended up 6th.

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#67 bluerat

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 12:55 PM

In '77 Yearbook Dunco's car is always listed as a 240z in the results of the ARC (1976) which he won and the car has 4080 plates and LHd. The 76 Castrol International Rally he is listed as 3rd outright, with Nissan Australia as the entrant, behind George Fury in 2nd in a works 710sss and Greg Carr in 1st in a private entry 180sss.

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#68 dat2kman

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 07:22 PM

It would certainly seem that the Australian Nissan team had worked their way around this whole Carnet/Japan registration thing, as the cars were here longer than the period allowed.
Talking with the suspension setup guy, some of the "pushed off the boat" cars, that left Australia, may not have been the same cars that came in, under Carnet, but were nicely painted up replicas, just to keep authourities happy.

The cars were then shared amongst the rally fraternity.
( not Z's, but Stanzas!)


#69 HS30-H

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 08:09 PM

Just dragged out the '74 Competition Yearbook and there is a photo of 8075 competing in the first round of the 73 ARC where it ended up 6th.


Good find! In March '73 (the 'Uniroyal Southern 500' being 10th & 11th March) '8075' would still have been within the dates of its carnet.

Frank Kilfoyle used a 4cyl car for the second round of the '73 ARC, so I'm guessing that '8075' was no longer available to him after the first round. My feeling is that it did leave Australia within the terms of its carnet. Being an ECGI-equipped works car I think it was quite distinctive in its tell-tale details. Straightforward enough to convert to carburettors, but a close look at the car would probably reveal the fact that it had been ECGI-equipped at one time.

Always hoping a 'barn find' ex-works car will turn up again, but it seems increasingly unlikely...
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#70 bluerat

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 06:56 PM

Everyone knows all the famous old rally cars ended up in Tassie...no ex works 240z's down here, LOL...no 30 is the closest we have!!

According to the yearbook, Frank ran what was reported as 'ex works 240z' in round 2 'Classic Rally' with a blown diff DNF, then equal 2nd in the next round the 'Bunbury Curran' rally, then another blown diff DNF in the 'Bega rally' whilst leading on the last stage..bugger. No mention of them in the 5th round report but had an outright win in the mighty Alpine rally in the ex works Southern cross 180B SSS.

There are also some photo's of Tony Pond's and Shekhar Mehta's works 240Z's in the Southern Cross of that year if you need a copy

Cheers

Hodgo
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#71 dat2kman

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 07:49 PM

BTW
Ross and Lisa just won, and very comprehensively, the State Bank Discovery Trial re-run, in a Dato 1600.

Old drivers/bold drivers, etc etc,,,,,

#72 gav240z

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 11:39 PM

This could have been TKS 33 SA 8075. Look for the 0:47 second mark.

 

Edit later footage reveals it is 8075!



#73 Mike260LW

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 04:15 PM

Apologies, but I don't follow your comments about "the premier car" and "the big events"?

The point I was making is that I have no doubt the original LHD works 240Z 'TKS 33 SU 4080' (one of a batch of cars built for the 1973 RAC Rally) was diverted to Australia to be used by Tony Fall on the 1973 Southern Cross. And I reckon (from what I can see) the same LHD works 240Z stayed on in Australia after the '73 Southern Cross and was used on the '74 Southern Cross by Dunkerton. That sets up a Dunkerton connection with the car, and leads me to suspect that it was the same car - maybe rebuilt/modified, but still on the same LHD works 'shell - that he used on the '76 Australian championship. If some of the parts from '4080' had simply been used to build a fresh rally car based on a standard road 'shell, then why choose an LHD 'shell and where would that have come from?

I think the fact that Dunkerton's '76 championship car was LHD makes it more likely that it was the original '4080'.

And we haven't really addressed the implications/reason for putting the '4080' license plate on the front of the '76 championship car either. As explained and discussed, '4080's' carnet would have run out by '75 let alone '76. The number couldn't be used legally on a car in Australia in 1976, full stop. So why was it on the front of the '76 championship car? Likely it was to back-up the paperwork/logbook of the car (as was done with the '75 Le Mans 24hrs car, where a Japanese carnet license plate from an LHD works rally car was stuck on the back of an RHD ex-works circuit race car in order to back up the fake identity of the car, and help ease any possibility of ineligibility) and if Mr Dunkerton is willing to tell us the whole truth about '4080' then I'll be very interested to hear it.       



All the works 240Zs would have to have been on carnets, yes. They would have been registered for road use in Japan first, then issued the carnet-linked 'translated' license plates. If they were sent to Australia without Japanese road registration and license plates, they would have needed to be registered in Australia either as 'new' cars or as previously unregistered used cars. A logistical nightmare. 

 A bit confused about this.  The following photograph is from the 1975 Australian Competition Year.  Its right hand drive, no carnet plate.

IMG_1643.jpg

The next pictures are from the 1976 Australian Competition Year.  Appears to be the same RHD car.  Clearly not "4080".

IMG_1645.jpg

IMG_1646.jpg

IMG_1647.jpg

The "Red Zed" referred to earlier in this thread is owned by 24 Dat. The car was originally built by Alan Stean who, as discussed elsewhere, is well connected with Ross Dunkerton from rally Zeds in WA in the day and later navigating for Ross in various events.  Alan built the Red Zed for a customers a road going car, then had the opportunity to buy it latter and fitted it with good parts from his stores.  24 Dat confirmed the advice the front struts came from a Dunkerton car, sporting a Halda drive take-off point, but doesn't know if they were from a "Factory Works" car, a "Nissan Australia works" car or a Dunkerton, the Privateer, car.  Alan was also an authorised Nissan Parts Dealer and had access to other good bits.  The "works Pedal box" referenced, is limited to a works brake pedal.  It has a cross-hatched metal foot pad and skirt welded onto the right hand underside to prevent your foot slipping under the brake pedal when moving from the accelerator in  a hurry!  We have one in our stockpile, complete with nissan spare parts sticker.  A gift from Alan Stean.



#74 HS30-H

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:00 PM

 A bit confused about this.  The following photograph is from the 1975 Australian Competition Year.  Its right hand drive, no carnet plate.

attachicon.gifIMG_1643.jpg

The next pictures are from the 1976 Australian Competition Year.  Appears to be the same RHD car.  Clearly not "4080".

attachicon.gifIMG_1645.jpg

attachicon.gifIMG_1646.jpg

attachicon.gifIMG_1647.jpg

 

 

Yes, it's confusing (we are all confused about at least one aspect of all this...!) but what are you referring to? All the photos appear to show the same car, and not the one(s) wearing the works carnet 'plate '4080'. Different car.


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#75 dat2kman

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:07 PM

24dat's red zed isnt a works car, if it was, we wouldn't hear the end of it!

It was used by Ross/Alan, or intended to be, in late 1980"s,
Alan should he able to confirm, after he gets back from hs Japan trip, with family!
It was setup as a rally car, much much later!
The various bolt on goodies were quite commonly available, ( chucked out the back of Nissan Aust rally servce trucks, or given away at end of each year)
Howard Marsden was very helpfull to the up and comers!
Even gave away a complete Factory built car!

#76 HS30-H

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:16 PM

The "Red Zed" referred to earlier in this thread is owned by 24 Dat. The car was originally built by Alan Stean who, as discussed elsewhere, is well connected with Ross Dunkerton from rally Zeds in WA in the day and later navigating for Ross in various events.  Alan built the Red Zed for a customers a road going car, then had the opportunity to buy it latter and fitted it with good parts from his stores.  24 Dat confirmed the advice the front struts came from a Dunkerton car, sporting a Halda drive take-off point, but doesn't know if they were from a "Factory Works" car, a "Nissan Australia works" car or a Dunkerton, the Privateer, car.  Alan was also an authorised Nissan Parts Dealer and had access to other good bits.  The "works Pedal box" referenced, is limited to a works brake pedal.  It has a cross-hatched metal foot pad and skirt welded onto the right hand underside to prevent your foot slipping under the brake pedal when moving from the accelerator in  a hurry!  We have one in our stockpile, complete with nissan spare parts sticker.  A gift from Alan Stean.

 

I'd be very pleased to see a photo (if you'd oblige) of that spare works-type brake pedal from your stockpile, and especially would like to see the Nissan spare parts sticker on it. Love stuff like that.

 

The works pedals were hand fabricated using 'stock' parts. You'd start off with a stock pedal - probably complete with original Nissan part label - then chop off the original pedal pad and add the works style (metal, cross-hatched pad with side guard to stop your foot getting stuck underneath it) to the original stem and pivot. So it would not be all that surprising to see an original parts label for a stock part on a works modified spare part... 

 

 

The wider point about 'ex-Works' parts washing around in period and long after is that they can lead us back on trails to original cars and the events they took part in. In that sense they can be useful clues to what cars were around, what they took part in, who crewed them, who had 'ownership' of them and - indeed - the individual identities of the actual cars. In the general scheme of things there were not many proper works Zs knocking around at any one time, unlike the situation with the slightly later 4-cyl cars (of which there appeared to be two or three times as many), so left-over parts and (we wish!) whole cars are comparatively thin on the ground.

 

Genuine works rally Z parts - in my experience - often leave a trail back to their origins, and following those trails can be interesting. I've got quite a few such parts myself, and - by following their trail of ownership and other clues - they can often be linked to individual cars. So when people talk of ex-Works parts (or parts that appear to be ex-Works, or similar) it piques my interest and I always want to look deeper.


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#77 HS30-H

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:37 PM

The various bolt on goodies were quite commonly available, ( chucked out the back of Nissan Aust rally servce trucks, or given away at end of each year)
Howard Marsden was very helpfull to the up and comers!
Even gave away a complete Factory built car!

 

I'd be interested to hear exactly what useful works parts got chucked out the back of service trucks? And are we blurring the lines between Nissan's official (Oppama-based) works rally team and their Japanese personnel/equipment with Nissan Australia's own in-house efforts? Of course they often worked together, but I can't imagine a situation where any Japanese mechanics servicing works Zs would be letting stuff go. Half the time they didn't have enough to start with... 

 

What "complete Factory built car" got given away? I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm talking strictly about S30-series Zs, and not 4cyl cars.



#78 HS30-H

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 08:02 PM

For reference, a (bad, sorry!) photo of a set of proper Works pedals on an RHD car from 1971:

 

JZSCXP.jpg

 

There were several different variations across the batches of cars as the style developed, and the drivers gave their input.


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#79 Mike260LW

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 08:28 PM

Yes, it's confusing (we are all confused about at least one aspect of all this...!) but what are you referring to? All the photos appear to show the same car, and not the one(s) wearing the works carnet 'plate '4080'. Different car.

Sorry, I came in late on this discussion, but I got the impression it was being implied the 4080 car was campaigned in the '75 & '76 ARC championships. But it would appear neither Dunkerton or any of the other Zed front runners were using the 4080 car which gives credence to the car being returned to Japan.
I'll get some photos of the works pedal we have and pose them. Looks identical to the one pictured here.

#80 Mike260LW

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 08:36 PM

24dat's red zed isnt a works car, if it was, we wouldn't hear the end of it!
It was used by Ross/Alan, or intended to be, in late 1980"s,
Alan should he able to confirm, after he gets back from hs Japan trip, with family!
It was setup as a rally car, much much later!
The various bolt on goodies were quite commonly available, ( chucked out the back of Nissan Aust rally servce trucks, or given away at end of each year)
Howard Marsden was very helpfull to the up and comers!
Even gave away a complete Factory built car!


Jason, i think we are talking cross purposes here. The red zed referred to is not the car Dunkerton and Stean campaigned together in various Tarmac rallies here and in NZ and Ross drove in the Race to the Sky; but the 240z David R now owns. Alan added bits to it when it was in his stable.




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