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What devalues a zed?


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#101 HS30-H

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 07:47 PM

So on the subject of flares, what i draw from this was the factory intention, was to have wide arches that were cut for race cars. They didn't do it for cost reasons, as were most styling decisions on the zed. At the risk of being corrected by HS30-H, I saw a youtube interview with one of the original Japanese designers of the z, saying he wanted headlight covers and full height grill as standard. So there is supporting evidence that this could be the reason for not cutting the guards. Also they would have to fit super wide wheels and tyres from the factory, further cost and all things you would change if you were racing it anyway.


So from that we can deduce that cutting guards with flares is just finishing the factory's job, if you have a g-nose ;D


I think the video you saw was Matsuo san explaining that he originally wanted a slatted grille that filled the whole 'hole' in the front of the short-nosed Z body. The headlamp covers were also part of the original styling of the car but were used as an extra-cost showroom option in the end.

Nissan would not have needed to make the cars with wide arches, as the process of homologation allowed them to document and legalise the parts they wanted to use for competition. That meant they could use rivet-on overfenders and cut the sheetmetal underneath them if necessary. After homologating the minimum-sized overfenders for the 432-R and then later the 240ZG, they were able to use a percentage slightly wider than that in competition. When they wanted to go wider still, they homologated what later became known as the 'Type A' and 'Type B' "Full Works" overfenders, and - once again - used a percentage sightly wider on their own Works cars.

So there was no need for them to make wide-arched cars to sell to the general public when the process of homologation via JAF and the FIA made it easier for them to do it with rivet-on overfenders.

People sometimes ask me why the 240ZG was sold with (normal) skinny wheels and hubcaps. The answer is that the 240ZG was only built and sold to the general public in a certain quantity that would legalise the homologation of the parts that they wanted to use for racing, and - just as importantly - the evolutions that followed from them. The 240ZG wasn't built as a 'race' car, it was simply a homologation exercise.   

#102 MaygZ

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 08:04 AM

I think most are going down the same path now.

I'll try to summarise - and I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will let me know  ;)

If I'm selling a beautiful concourse, matching numbers early 240 then a person looking for exactly that will pay lots of money for it, but the person looking for a project will offer bugger all for it.

If I'm selling a very neat 240 with flares, RBs, triple 40's, Sparco seats and a doof doof stereo then the concourse wanter won't come near me, but a person looking for a completed project with all this gear will offer me lots and a person looking for his own project will offer me bugger all.

I'm guessing the same if the above car has a BMW V12/RB25dett/LS3/Windsor/Rover/20B/flux capacitor fitted it would be dealt with the same.

As we all know, the bloke looking for the complete project car will always only ever offer bugger all - regardless!

There are some people that want an old car but are not interested putting up with old car issues - smelly, heavy steering, loud, lack of power, rattles etc.  Some people want an 'old' car that drives like a new car or has some of the benefits or balance of both worlds.

See I love Sulios 260.  It's almost stripped out.  The seats are not particularly comfortable, it's noisy as it has no carpets, your feet get hot, the cage closes it in a fair bit, the steering is heavy, the engine is not an extreme power house, the guards are cut for the flares, it has some big rubber on it.  Some might describe it as a terrible car - I think it is the bees knees and I love it.  I would buy that car (no Sulio I don't have any money) well before I would buy a beautifully restored 240.  Whilst the latter would probably have more interest and therefore reach a higher value.  I suspect that if Sulio's had a full interior and a few more creature comforts, the price for each would be very comparable.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and cash is in the hand of the purchaser.  If you are selling a product that the purchaser just has to have, then they will reach to the bottom of their pockets to get it.

If your car is a 'cookie cutter' Zed, then by definition there are lots of them and supply might exceed demand.  If yours is a little (or a lot) different, then you can name your own price - but you might have to wait for the smaller market to 'realise' the value.

I'm always a bit disappointed when people start telling other what they can and can't do with their cars.  Some people love flares, G-noses, big rubber, Safari Gold, RBs, automatics and yes even a sunroof! (although you might be waiting for a while for a person that loves them all together - but ohhh what a rare car it would be  ??? )

#103 gilltech

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:05 AM

Good conclusions.
So what devalues a Zed? POOR CONDITION. Simple.

#104 gav240z

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:59 AM

Good conclusions.
So what devalues a Zed? POOR CONDITION. Simple.


Rust and lots of it, and missing a lot of original parts. If looking for a restoration candidate that is, I bid on HS30 00150 because it looked mostly complete, albeit a bit rough body wise. The level of rust wasn't really disclosed in the eBay ad, but it wasn't my first rodeo so I kinda knew what to expect.

Given the cost of many of the original parts these days especially for early cars I think I made the right decision going for something that was in my mind about 90% complete in terms of original shape.

For example:
- Early Steering Wheels are getting expensive. ($200 - $400)
- Early Seats ($400 in rough shape).
- Early Console's ($400 in good shape), finisher trims, ash trays (~$200 - $400 depending on condition). Choke and Throttle Knobs are $100 for reproductions etc..
- 240z tail lights in good shape are expensive. Ranging from $200 in poor shape to $2000 in OEM NOS shape.
- A good restored early RHD S30z dashboard is worth maybe $800 + (although unlike the US market we didn't really have any changes between what they call 'series 1' and 'series 2'. Since those changes have to do with hazard switch positioning and our cars didn't come with hazard switches, so not sure we have an 'early' vs 'late' dash.
- Early S30z type fender mirrors w/long stalks (JDM) are $600+ depending on condition.
- A good early rear hatch is worth god knows what? I've not seen a good 1 for sale. Hence repairing mine, but the work involved I'd say a good rust free ready to paint hatch is worth at least $1000.
- Try finding original badges (metal ones?) - Early 240z 1/4 pillar badges (in metal) are priced all over the place. From $60 - $300 USD.
- Or try finding original AU market fender mirrors? That's been a challenge for me, although I think they were relatively generic ones fitted to many Japanese cars of the era. So think I got that sorted now or at least very very close.

Basically because we got so few early cars in Australia and because what's left is generally being restored due to rarity nobody is parting them out - which I see more often in the US which means part supplies are much more limited and prices are higher. Therefore an early car that is complete and in need of restoration is worth far more than a car that is incomplete.

To find an early S30z with minimal rust, complete and that's been in storage for many years etc.. is getting very rare these days. I'm pleasantly surprised when I find that many areas of my early car have never been taken apart. There's something to be said for a car that hasn't been messed about with too much by amateur mechanics. or repainted multiple times, or cut up for speakers and rewired for god knows what contraptions in the past. The bondo work I've found in my car though I'm less fond of...and it appears the car has at least had 1 repaint in the original Safari Gold. People like a car in it's original paint because it means it is less likely to be hiding nasty surprises.

It must be said that what I enjoy half the time is the hunt for rare parts I get disappointed when I miss out on an auction at the last minute because someone else equally wants that part. The more parts you have to source the more expensive restoration becomes.

An early car may be desired, but an early complete car is much more desirable. I guess the other thing that hasn't been directly mentioned is that low vin # seem to drive a bit more value. A few of us like to play low vin bingo and I totally understand if others feel that's a bit silly at the same time. But there is no denying this is driving bids up on sites like eBay.



#105 d3c0y

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 06:44 PM

I think the video you saw was Matsuo san explaining that he originally wanted a slatted grille that filled the whole 'hole' in the front of the short-nosed Z body. The headlamp covers were also part of the original styling of the car but were used as an extra-cost showroom option in the end.

Nissan would not have needed to make the cars with wide arches, as the process of homologation allowed them to document and legalise the parts they wanted to use for competition. That meant they could use rivet-on overfenders and cut the sheetmetal underneath them if necessary. After homologating the minimum-sized overfenders for the 432-R and then later the 240ZG, they were able to use a percentage slightly wider than that in competition. When they wanted to go wider still, they homologated what later became known as the 'Type A' and 'Type B' "Full Works" overfenders, and - once again - used a percentage sightly wider on their own Works cars.

So there was no need for them to make wide-arched cars to sell to the general public when the process of homologation via JAF and the FIA made it easier for them to do it with rivet-on overfenders.

People sometimes ask me why the 240ZG was sold with (normal) skinny wheels and hubcaps. The answer is that the 240ZG was only built and sold to the general public in a certain quantity that would legalise the homologation of the parts that they wanted to use for racing, and - just as importantly - the evolutions that followed from them. The 240ZG wasn't built as a 'race' car, it was simply a homologation exercise. 



Cool post Alan, very interesting and I was pretty close to the mark. Take that anti-guard cutters!



#106 gav240z

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 07:57 AM

http://online.barron...174231803634988

Just going to call out this...

Originality is key to many collectors;installing an MP3 player probably will lower the value of the car. Lately, there has even been "a bit of a backlash against 'over-restoration,' " says Craig Jackson, CEO of Barrett-Jackson, a classic-car auction house. Some buyers want barn finds cleaned up and running, but little more. "We've sold a few that looked a little rough but broke the bank." Earlier this year, an unrestored 1956 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL gull wing went for $1.9 million; a fully restored one sold for $1.4 million.


Now the S30z isn't at the point where it appeals to the market like a 300SL Gull Wing would, but it does highlight the importance of originality in the minds of some collectors and at some point I think that will be the critical difference between values for some S30z's.

I also find it interesting that there is a backlash against over restoration, a bit of patina is good for ya!

"All things equal, unless you are really passionate about the car, you're better off buying it already restored," advises Tom Papadopoulos, owner of Autosport Designs, an award-winning restoration specialist in Huntington Station, N.Y. "You can collect watches or baseball cards, but you really have to love that car to restore it." And should you fall out of love and sell the restored vehicle, know that you might even lose money. This is an inefficient market, says James Glickenhaus, investment pro and car collector. The money and time put into a restoration is "often way more than you can buy it for."


I keep banging this drum to newbies sometimes I feel a broken record...

The closing statement is also good.

Still, don't be swayed by the hype of an overheating market. You might justify a supercar restoration as an asset diversification, but tastes change, as they do in fine art, so make sure you stick to the fundamentals—loving that car.



#107 Bonkers

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 09:39 AM

A few questions
Roll cages in road registered cars and perhaps trailer cars. How do they stand on value?

History : What if a car has been involved with an incorporated Car Club and the owner has history with events such as  sprint series , Japanese day events , Targa type events and the car is a road registered zed but not a candy car. Or does it just scream something that has had a hard life?

 

#108 zzzzed

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:07 PM

A few questions
Roll cages in road registered cars and perhaps trailer cars. How do they stand on value?

History : What if a car has been involved with an incorporated Car Club and the owner has history with events such as  sprint series , Japanese day events , Targa type events and the car is a road registered zed but not a candy car. Or does it just scream something that has had a hard life?



I just paid 25k for a car that fits your description. I believe it is worth much more though.

#109 dat2kman

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:42 PM

If cars used in sprints and hillclimbs today, are kept for another 30 or so years, they will mean very little, f anything, when it comes to adeed value.
If cars today are used for circuit races, and do well, e podium places, or win championships, their value in 30 or so years will ge a lot greater, even more so f they were driven by people that have some note in Australian motorport.
This is coming to fore now, going by values of cars that were raced, 30 or 40 years back, and only if they are the genuine car, not a mickey mouse replica wannabe lookalike car.
Added to those values then throw in drivers that were known amongst their racing peers.

Something with a roll cage in it, owned by a me,ber of some car club, used for rints/lapdash/time attack for in some cases I know of, over 10 years , will only ever be worth what a regular enhanced Z os worth.
Nothing special, and as for a "hard time" it's those cars that get treated right and looked after way more often, than a Sunday cruiser car.

Plenty seem to think, ften unwaverinkly, that the money they spend on a car, is what it is worth, and should sell for that!
Race cars are prime examples!
As above Jeffs 260 ( my old car) sold at $25k cost him over $45k to get it to that stage.
My current car, to replicate that today ( go ask Stew Wilkins! ) potentially over $100k
Selling it at $45k
In right hands, it will win you races, and championships!

#110 hmd

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:45 PM

With regards to the original question, I believe there is a precedence that could be applied, it's the early Porsche 911 model designate 901. (pre 74)

Back in the 80s and 90s people were putting (cut and weld) later bigger guards from Carrera or even Turbo and installed later modern engines. And cars with these mods had better value than the originals then.

Wind the clock forward and as it's harder to find these cars now, those "hot rods" has now become much less valuable. When people price these modified cars they take into account how much it cost to put it back to its origin state. Undoing the guards, finding same type of engines, mechanical fuel injection system not to mention getting the lost matching number engine are all counting towards the negative of the car value.

#111 gav240z

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 11:09 AM

@Hmd - I couldn't agree more, and I think S30z's will go that way also. Given just how many have been chopped, modified and not preserved in their original state.

Thinking of the early Mazda rotaries I think we're gonna see a lot more cars going back to original spec, I can't think of the last time I saw a clean original R100 coupe in original shape for sale. Lots of big turbo 13B modified cars with large Simmons wheels and tubbed rear arches, but very few 60s looking original hubcap wearing R100s, RX2's, RX3's etc.. They are slowly making a comeback, which is pleasing to see (in my opinion).

Last night I watched this video.
Boom or Bust? What 2015 holds for the collector car market | Hagerty Seminar


If you've got an hour and a half to watch the whole thing I recommend it. Some funny comments in there, they cover the Japanese equity bubble and how that impacted cars, how the Internet has changed things and a lot of shenanigans that went on in the past.

They also discuss "the wealth effect" and how people were using equity in their homes to buy some exotic cars. I think in Australia the mining boom has helped people live a bit lavishly. It does make me wonder if our housing market pops what will happen to the "Aussie" classic cars of the period. Will there be a rapid decline in values for a short period, possibly followed by a recovery a few years later?

I guess 1 interesting thing about owning an S30z is that it at least has Global appeal, where as the Aussie muscle cars may be less popular outside of Australia. Although in the US they seem to like quite a few of our cars.

#112 hmd

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 11:49 AM

I guess 1 interesting thing about owning an S30z is that it at least has Global appeal, where as the Aussie muscle cars may be less popular outside of Australia


Well yes, that's why you can't go wrong with Porsches however they have too high an entry level price, and to some extent American muscle like Corvettes and Mustang.
When the AUD was high Aussies were buying overseas 911 and now some are going back to the UK as our mining booms going bust.





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