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What devalues a zed?


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#21 Patch

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 01:43 PM

As an example of a modified car being worth more than a standard car we have this car thanks to a movie, I seen a doco on these and they are now building new ones made to order with all sorts of drive lines, they are worth huge amounts of money compared to the GT500 they were based from.

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#22 Roberto

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 01:55 PM

I agree that if done right with tasteful period mods, they may actually add value. Doesn't matter if 240Z or 260Z.

But really, value only matters if the car is up for sale.  If you plan to keep your car forever or pass it onto your kids, then dollar value is irrelevant.



#23 44014

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:00 PM

As an example of a modified car being worth more than a standard car we have this car thanks to a movie, I seen a doco on these and they are now building new ones made to order with all sorts of drive lines, they are worth huge amounts of money compared to the GT500 they were based from.


One of my good friends just sold his Eleanor replica to a wealthy man in China for a substantial amount of money...
Much Much MUCH! more then what neat 67 fastbacks go for.

#24 260DET

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:22 PM

The only zeds I have seen sell for good money are modified ones.
The highest prices recently I have Seen are 260z 2 seaters?
Can anyone show me a stock original 240Z that has sold for more then 30k that is not a special edition? IE 432 or had a 200k restoration?
IMO people will pay for a car that is done right.. flares, good suspension ,good engine package ( I don't think engine conversions devalue a car in the slightest ) and its just about making the car look right.
Jake and myself spend a lot of time ( and obscene amount of money )making sure we get the right parts and do research into making things look right.
And I'm sure when my 20B takes the place of the L28ET im 100% certain that the market that would buy my car would go into the single digits percentage wise but would it devalue it?...I don't think so.

Cheers Doug


If the engine change is sympathetic, makes good power and is well done then it can add value which, of course, does not mean there is money to be made by doing that, far from it. A rotary would not fit into the sympathetic category though, it would be very hard to sell and that in effect will devalue it compared with say a RB30ET.

#25 cracker

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:23 PM

One of my good friends just sold his Eleanor replica to a wealthy man in China for a substantial amount of money...
Much Much MUCH! more then what neat 67 fastbacks go for.


The value proposition with these cars is fairly unique in that it is based on a cult following after the huge success of a movie. While the numbers might be accurate and real, it's not really a relevant comparison, imo.

PS. I'm with Roberto - just don't ever sell the things!

#26 gav240z

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:43 PM

PS. I'm with Roberto - just don't ever sell the things!


This in itself will cause values to sky rocket. If nobody is willing to sell them, then demand will be high and supply will remain low. Job done! :).

#27 gav240z

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:58 PM

Relax little fella... I didnt "read into your post incorrectly" I simply replied to your comment. No harm done.


Don't worry I'm relaxed ;)

The only zeds I have seen sell for good money are modified ones.
The highest prices recently I have Seen are 260z 2 seaters?
Can anyone show me a stock original 240Z that has sold for more then 30k that is not a special edition? IE 432 or had a 200k restoration?
IMO people will pay for a car that is done right.. flares, good suspension ,good engine package ( I don't think engine conversions devalue a car in the slightest ) and its just about making the car look right.
Jake and myself spend a lot of time ( and obscene amount of money )making sure we get the right parts and do research into making things look right.
And I'm sure when my 20B takes the place of the L28ET im 100% certain that the market that would buy my car would go into the single digits percentage wise but would it devalue it?...I don't think so.

Cheers Doug


I haven't seen a totally original unmodified S30z come up for sale. They have always had some level of modification. Imagine if HS30 0004 was put on the market in totally original shape? What do you think that is worth? $30K? I doubt it. It's probably worth a whole lot more than that. If it had an RB26 it's appeal would be diminished.

I don't think modifying has to destroy the value of a car, but with each modification you potentially narrow the audience of would be buyers willing to pay top dollar. It's quite possible you'll find the perfect buyer for a 20B swapped S30z (which I'd love to do) and get the money you ask for it, but the chances are slimmer than for an original S30z.

Gav I think you have a specific idea of what you are regarding as modified which probably differs to what others (including myself) have. Tasteful modification is a completely different kettle of fish to me.


Both of those cars have very 90s modification points about them which i think detract from it as they are not timeless.


This is a modified car and what I regard as tastefully modified which I believe increases the value every day of the week. I also believe that when paired with a highly modified motor it will increase the value further.


Posted Image


I agree I'm a big fan of the HS30-H A.K.A Fairlady 240ZG look. Replica or genuine article doesn't bother me, but that's period correct looking. I see a lot of S30z's modified in a non period correct fashion. When I originally wrote my list it was a list of generalisations, I wasn't being very specific to every edge case.


There is a level of subjectivity in my post but I'm trying to remain unbiased as possible. I am a bit of a purist (now) but 5 years ago I wanted to buy a 2 seater and cut it up and put flares on it. I wouldn't dare do that to my late 240z now, even though my theory above suggests that I'd get away with it. The market will of course change and I suspect the collectability of late 240s and 260 2 seaters will increase, and as such the price. Eventually, flares on these cars will devalue them as they would an early 240z now. But now I'm speculating, which is very much subjective, but.. history is the best evidence of all.


Thanks for articulating what I've obviously failed to do, I agree that I am somewhat speculating as to what will be in demand in future. However with more and more cars being modified the originals are going to get harder and harder to find. If there is demand for original examples and not many around prices will of course rise. You see it all the time with cars that were popular to chop up and change at a certain point coming full circle to being in high demand in original shape. In 30 years time I bet you'll see S13, S14, S15s etc.. going for big money in unrestored original shape. Clean R32 GTRs are starting to rise in value in original shape. Those are the market forces I see...





#28 gilltech

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:48 PM

As an example of a modified car being worth more than a standard car we have this car thanks to a movie, I seen a doco on these and they are now building new ones made to order with all sorts of drive lines, they are worth huge amounts of money compared to the GT500 they were based from.

Yeah the Gone In 60 Seconds thing has been going since that (remake) movie came out in 2000. The original 11? (I think) movie cars built were constructed on normal '67 & '68 fastbacks, as fake customized Shelby GT500s. The ones that survived the movie fetch good $$$ due to their provenance. They weren't all the same specs, it depended what they were used for eg. stunts, close-ups, etc. So there's no one true spec. Some had big-blocks, others had small-blocks.
Yes there are individuals & companies in the USA & here building new 'Eleanors' to a wide range of customers' specifications & quality levels of finish. Some are very very expensive high-end builds, using either restored body shells or new repro shells, totally customized in powertrain & interior & a huge world away from the original pretty basic car or the fake-GT500 movie car(s) for that matter. They are the ones that grab the headlines with big $$$.
At the other end of the scale there are '67/68 Mustang fastbacks claimed to be 'Eleanors' with poorly fitted low quality body kits & nothing much else to set them apart. And many 'Eleanors' in between. The low end ones even with a reasonable paint job don't really gain any value to the original car were it to be kept pretty stock as the knowledgeable shy away from them, body kits can hide a lot of defects.
Real Shelby GT500s command bigger $$$ than the majority of replica Eleanors if in equivalent condition, or better yet totally tidy & original unrestored. But no doubt there will always be some high-end new 'Eleanors' that will only change hands for silly money due to the amount their owners lavished on them in the first place.
Crazy. You can keep on building new replica 'Eleanors', but there is a finite number of real Shelby GT500s ever built. As a '67 FB owner I just don't get the attraction, I'm over the pewter paintjob, doesn't suit the car's lines as it is clearly a modern colour. Personally I much prefer the original Halicki's 'Gone in 60secs' of 1973, the best & longest car chase ever & without computer enhancement either. Used a modified yellow '71 Mustang fastback. Just one. And it still survives.
Sorry to rave on off-topic.

#29 zzzzed

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:56 PM

I will sell mine when I am to old to drive it. Only because my daughter would not appreciate it enough so I would rather her have the money. 

#30 gav240z

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:21 PM

Back to original question and to fan the fire further. 2 additional seats in the back has a profoundly negative impact on value as does adding an X to the badge.

Ducks and hides....

#31 DayoZ

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:26 PM

I can only talk from the small experience I have but I haven't experienced flares devaluing a 260, it's actually been the exact opposite.  Even the beautiful dark green 260z that I sold (I didn't cut the guards just flares and lowered on stiff springs) sold for a great price and then the guy took the flares off, had the guards welded and repainted.  I think changing stuff like weird taillights and sunroofs are the big problem.  I have found that most people who are buying higher priced Zeds are wanting nice looking, turn key investments.

Just my (albeit, limited experience)
Rev



#32 DayoZ

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:31 PM

Hi Guys. Interesting discussion as one of the cars mentioned is mine (car sales 73 240Z)  As the add says , it's started its life as a automatic , so. What would you buy a original auto or a slightly modified manual late 240Z.
I guess like you guys  I like to buy a cheap car and then rebuild it or restore it and add your own personal touches.

So what would you pay for a car that has been rebuilt ,such as mine ???

DayoZ

#33 zzzzed

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:52 PM

It may help if we knew which one was yours? 
I hope no offence has been taken


#34 DayoZ

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:15 PM

Hi.  No offence taken just after opinions.  The car is the yellow 1973. 240Z listed on car sales at the moment.
The discussion seems to be in favour of original rebuild or  "period " modifications that add to the essence.

I guess it also relates to the price that is being asked ? 
So what do you think it is worth ?  I would think that each of us has thought ..... What would I sell my Z for ?

DayoZ (Peter)

#35 44014

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:16 PM



I haven't seen a totally original unmodified S30z come up for sale. They have always had some level of modification. Imagine if HS30 0004 was put on the market in totally original shape? What do you think that is worth? $30K? I doubt it. It's probably worth a whole lot more than that. If it had an RB26 it's appeal would be diminished.

I don't think modifying has to destroy the value of a car, but with each modification you potentially narrow the audience of would be buyers willing to pay top dollar. It's quite possible you'll find the perfect buyer for a 20B swapped S30z (which I'd love to do) and get the money you ask for it, but the chances are slimmer than for an original S30z.

I agree I'm a big fan of the HS30-H A.K.A Fairlady 240ZG look. Replica or genuine article doesn't bother me, but that's period correct looking. I see a lot of S30z's modified in a non period correct fashion. When I originally wrote my list it was a list of generalisations, I wasn't being very specific to every edge case.



Ok gav.. What about a low number 240z fitted with a rb26 or other engine ie jz vq or 20B
And the original motor on a stand with the car?
You don't need to modify the body of the car to fit any of those engines and would be a day's work to e install the boring slow stock l series?

On a side note my car and jakes car both have original matching number engines sitting under our work benches in our garages.

On another train of thought these old guys buying these stock unmolested mint 240z's there old... And in 15 or 20 years time they will be looking to sell them due to age and illness and blah blah us 30 odd year olds will be the ones buying these cars.
And since I can't see myself ever being interested in owning a stock boring standard z I see the well modified ones being of the same value.
432 yes should not be modified but we are not talking about that type of car..
Any of these modified cars can be returned to stock original condition quite easily.

Doug

#36 gav240z

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:02 PM

Hi.  No offence taken just after opinions.  The car is the yellow 1973. 240Z listed on car sales at the moment.
The discussion seems to be in favour of original rebuild or  "period " modifications that add to the essence.

I guess it also relates to the price that is being asked ? 
So what do you think it is worth ?  I would think that each of us has thought ..... What would I sell my Z for ?

DayoZ (Peter)


In my opinion current asking price is fair, if the body rot hasn't returned since it was done, meaning it was more than likely repaired properly. Yes the paint colour may not be everyone's cup of tea but in a few years if the values of these cars has gone up even more the new owner may opt to repaint in an original hue and if the underlying bodywork is sound it shouldn't be too hard or expensive to do.

If I were selling it though I'd probably be tempted to re-chrome the bumpers, change the wheels to something a bit more popular and period correct looking and switch the seats back to stock. Of course these additional expenses may negate any gains you get for going to that effort. This is of course just my opinion... by the way are you the same owner of the car in 2005 when we did that shoot down at the Docklands or has it changed hands since then?

#37 gav240z

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:23 PM

Ok gav.. What about a low number 240z fitted with a rb26 or other engine ie jz vq or 20B
And the original motor on a stand with the car?
You don't need to modify the body of the car to fit any of those engines and would be a day's work to e install the boring slow stock l series?

On a side note my car and jakes car both have original matching number engines sitting under our work benches in our garages.


I think you're sort of agreeing with me though about originality aren't you? In that whatever you do (eg: engine swap) should be reversible to original or close to original specification? Retaining the original motor means your keeping the 'matching numbers' (which my early 240z won't have by the way and I don't think is a huge deal, although for top dollar yes, but for feel and overall enjoyability I don't think it matters that much personally). My 72 has the original block available so I think to some extent matching numbers is a good thing.

We can agree to disagree that the L-banger is boring, I quite like em' for the period feel and look (aesthetics) in the engine bay. Are they an economical way to make power? Are they really fuel efficient? Are they the lightest option? Nope.. but they are simple to work on (I say this and I've not even finished a rebuild of 1) and easy to upgrade and fun to tinker with IMO. But then again I'm much more interested in say an LY engine head on an L-series block than I am to see a modern RB or SR or 1/2JZ under the hood. I'm much more interested in the history and development of the motor, but that is just me and my opinion.

On another train of thought these old guys buying these stock unmolested mint 240z's there old... And in 15 or 20 years time they will be looking to sell them due to age and illness and blah blah us 30 odd year olds will be the ones buying these cars.
And since I can't see myself ever being interested in owning a stock boring standard z I see the well modified ones being of the same value.
432 yes should not be modified but we are not talking about that type of car..
Any of these modified cars can be returned to stock original condition quite easily.

Doug


Who says you need to be an old guy to buy a mint and unmolested 240z? I'm 32 and I quite like the stock look and feel of these cars. Then again I listen to old music and my g/f says I've got an old soul so perhaps I'm just weird or should have been born in the 60's perhaps? I can live with that.

I do agree there is a demographic shift in any collector car and certain cars rise in value and then value and interest can decline as that demographic *ahem (moves on) and perhaps the following generation is less interested in them. I'm sure it will happen with cars from the 50s and 60s (if it hasn't already) they hit a peak in values that slowly cools off. I think what we are seeing with S30z's is the beginning of the jump in prices, they will become unaffordable to many would be owners and they will move onto something else. It's just the cycle, although some cars will forever be cherished and highly valued. Sadly I think the Ferrari GTOs will always be out of my league no matter how old I get.

I think a big difference between S30z's and say American Muscle cars is that there was relatively a lot fewer of them produced than there was of say Mustang's, Camaro's etc.. This means fewer have survived and may of today's survivors are not in great shape or in some cases potentially not worth the fiscal effort at current prices. This will erode current supplies and drive values up. So long as interest in the marque is sustained which thanks to video games, short features on Youtube and in other pop culture, music clips and movies and with continued interest in the Nissan brand (thanks to the GTR etc..) it seems there is no end of demand at this stage.

At the end of the day build the car you want to own and enjoy. We've all said this before and we all end up agreeing on this. So none of my comments are to try and de-value other cars or builds. Rather they are the personal opinions based on how values of other cars have gone over the years when talking about high-end auctions and the collector car world.

#38 Patch

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:25 PM

Hi Guys. Interesting discussion as one of the cars mentioned is mine (car sales 73 240Z)  As the add says , it's started its life as a automatic , so. What would you buy a original auto or a slightly modified manual late 240Z.
I guess like you guys  I like to buy a cheap car and then rebuild it or restore it and add your own personal touches.

So what would you pay for a car that has been rebuilt ,such as mine ???

DayoZ

As a sports car I would not look at a auto at all, so converted to manual is a + for me,  the value of the car depends on what someone is willing to pay, but as a guide I am 53 If I had the money I would pay twice the price for the Blue one mentioned than yours, On your yellow green car, I don't like the colour, the painted bumpers, the front spoiler, and looks like it has a rolled edge on the front of bonnet, not keen on the L28 and the 300zx seats it is meant to have, I don't mind the wheels.

The blue one, l like the colour, the wheels are fine, it looks better with the chrome bumpers, I like it has the matching engine and triples, I don't mind the front spoiler, if I seen both of these at a car show, I would spend 5mins looking at yours, and yours and the wife would have to drag me away from the Blue one.

As a guide on other cars mentioned, I would be happy with a well done RB, I would pay more if it had the matching # motor under the bench, best of both worlds, The rotary I would have a good look at probably be interested in a drive, but don't think I would buy one,

#39 theremm

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 09:04 PM

Interesting note about the automatic. I have a 240z ('73) which was/is originally an automatic, however over the coming weeks will be converted to manual. Most people wouldn't think twice about disposing of the auto box at the tip once the job is done, however I am choosing to keep the box in storage so that in years/decades to come (if the car ever moved onto another owner) I will still have the original gearbox. Whilst I personally would never convert the car back to an automatic, I agree with the principle of keeping original blocks etc in storage so that the car could be converted back to its original state in its entirety if desired.

#40 cracker

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:03 PM

Can anyone enlighten us as to whether there is anything on a zed that indicates it was an auto from the factory? If not, there is no reason to keep an car as an auto for originality's sake (unless you have dealer delivery paperwork or similar...).

I think the gearbox crossmembers were the same for auto/manual, not sure if any bodywork was any different though.




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