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further brake development


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#1 luvemfast

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 07:33 AM

Thinking I need to up my braking power.
Years ago the brake master cyl was rebuilt and re sleeved larger bore diameter. But I've never really been happy with the pedal. Also when you press the brake pedal, there has always been turbulence in the front reservoir, which is for the rear brakes.
Last trip to Sandown, the pedal felt worse as the day progressed and eventually the steering would vibrate under braking. I suspect the front rotors are warped.
The rear of the car feels loose coming into corners too.
I think the rear brakes aren't working sufficiently, increasing demand to fronts. Upsetting balance of car, due to nose diving.

I have aluminium 4 spot calipers up front with Ø296mm x 30mm ventilated, slotted rotors up front.
Standard series 2 280ZX slotted rotors and calipers on the rear.
S/S braided lines all round.
TRW pads.
http://www.viczcar.c...tach=5360;image
http://www.viczcar.c...tach=5362;image


Would an R32 skyline brake booster and master cyl be a viable option?

After recommendations for a good all rounder brake pad too.

#2 dat2kman

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 11:29 AM

If you are good with front camber settings, get a couple of steel wedges welded onto each strut leg at base to support the stub flange/brake caliper mount ears.
Peter Davis Suspension ( rally mob) down there know how to do it, properly.
Fully dissasemble and supply them bare struts.
Next thing, machine up a stub afle bearing support tube, ( sleeve) very fiddly as you end up taking 2 thou off at a time for final fit and bearing preload.
It fits between the inner races of the wheel bearings and acts as a additional support to the stub axle.

Have you thrown a dial indicator onto the discs to check runout? An oncar disc skim can do wonders, just disconnect rear driveshaft at outer companion flange to do rears.

Booster fitted? The tiny amounts of "play"  can add to extra pedal movement. Consider no booster?

#3 luvemfast

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:53 PM

If you are good with front camber settings, get a couple of steel wedges welded onto each strut leg at base to support the stub flange/brake caliper mount ears.
Peter Davis Suspension ( rally mob) down there know how to do it, properly.
Fully dissasemble and supply them bare struts.
Next thing, machine up a stub afle bearing support tube, ( sleeve) very fiddly as you end up taking 2 thou off at a time for final fit and bearing preload.
It fits between the inner races of the wheel bearings and acts as a additional support to the stub axle.


Got some pics to help me follow, where you're going Jason? ???

#4 dat2kman

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:50 PM

Bearing sleeve.

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#5 dat2kman

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:58 PM

Above is not Datsun strut, but shows the thick tapered inside/outside sleeve, that slides over stub, it has to be placed inside the hub before you slide it all on, and then fit smaller outer bearing and do up nut.

To the right, ( imagine a Z strut) the vertical bit of forging, that caliper bolts to, in a Z, is higher than this pic,
You get two bits of trapezoidal shaped 4mm plate, and fit between vertical plate and strut tube. Weld all around.

This mod stops the stub mounting from flexing AWAY from strut when cornering, and using 9" wide stocky rubber.
The stub wants to tuck under, ie go into positive camber, due to weight transfer and forces exerted.

The dirt rally boys did the plates thing to stop stubs from gending upwards ( extreme negative camber) on hard landings on jumps.
Reverse for circuit.

#6 44014

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 06:58 PM

I would install the 1" patrol master cylinder and have another go and get some good racing brake fluid and bleed before next track day.

#7 luvemfast

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 06:32 AM

I'm following you now Jas. But doubt I'd be putting the car through the same stresses as the rally boys.

Is the Patrol master a direct bolt on Jake? Why would that be a better option than an R32?

#8 Gareth. J.

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 07:52 AM

Sandown is pretty hard on the brakes isn't it? Maybe it's just time to flush the fluid and replace?

What about new pads, flush and upgrade your fluid, and install a bias adjuster. You can have a play at the next track day and see if you can dial in your ideal balance?

I use Project Mu club racer front pads, not cheap but they're the best pads I've had by a mile!

#9 PZG302

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 08:07 AM

Simon, if your running wide sticky tyres you are putting more lateral strain on the stubs. As an example my little 1600 hairdresser car on R888 gets up around a lateral force of 1.2 G through the corners at QR. If you are running semis your car will be doing the same or more and is a lot heavier than mine.

You would be surprised at the forces going through the suspension.

But, personally I would be looking at doing the simple things first.

Check the run out on the rotors to see if they are warped. Check pads, they may have cooked, if that is the case then the fluid won't be the best, but best to change the fluid anyway.

The calipers front and rear should be fine, but it maybe worth looking at upping the M/C size to get more fluid, you may be marginal with the current one and the volume of fluid needed for the system as a whole.

Next step would also be pads, look at something a little track orientated than what you have now, my personal recommendation would be hawk pads, probably the HP Plus or Blue, if you want to try them I can get them a lot cheaper than the local suppliers, just delivery is longer.

Than after sorting the brakes, if you still have dramas, then get the extra bracing for the stubs and struts done.

#10 44014

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 01:25 PM


Is the Patrol master a direct bolt on Jake? Why would that be a better option than an R32?


Doug.....

But yes direct bolt on, just need to remove the check valves front and rear as the patrol is drum all round and swap the lines from front to back.
I have stock front brake and 31 rear and it feels good maybe a little hard, this will be fixed with the z32 swap that is underway.

Cheers Doug!!

#11 luvemfast

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 07:54 PM

Cheers DOUG........ I just looked at the avatar pic.
Lol

#12 d3c0y

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 10:37 PM

Us QLDers, we all look the same.


Doug I thought were were doing the Boxster S calipers on yours?

#13 44014

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 11:34 AM

My r&ad guy is a bit slow on the uptake... Will run z32 for the L28et until development on the boxster calipers has finalized.


#14 dat2kman

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 12:41 PM

My r&ad guy is a bit slow on the uptake... Will run z32 for the L28et until development on the boxster calipers has finalized.

your R&D guy?
That's the one swanning about the World playing fast car driver, or sea plane pilot?

#15 Patch

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 07:23 PM

I have been reading it is getting hard for a small replacement brake booster for the 240, just found these on e-bay they are sold new for Hot rods, maybe worth a look if they would fit.
http://www.ebay.com....=item3a83528c23

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#16 luvemfast

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 10:06 PM

So dad and I were having a look under the bonnet and dash, while looking at pics on the Internet.
A Patrol master cylinder was recommended. Which is most likely going to happen. But has anyone had a good look at the boosters too? I'd like to know if anyone has done sometime like that!
The mounting looks pretty much bolt on, piping will need re-routing and get a larger 1" bore.

Also, getting some new rotors
http://deliosbrakes....oducts/dynamix/
Posted Image
They apparently work quite well on the track, with reduced heat and fade. Which is what I'm after.
Think a set of race pads for track and changing back to street pads for on road stuff.

#17 Wayne G

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 03:01 AM

mine is still in development phase but I have installed z32 booster and master @15/16 with a plan for z32 calipers front and ideally rear. the z32 is very heavy and seems to stop well enough.  I think a big factor is that the fluid reservoir is larger than the standard z. my 2c worth

#18 PZG302

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 07:55 AM

Simon, I wouldn't worry about the booster. A 1" master cylinder isn't that heavy without one and you get much better pedal feel without it.

Also if you are going down the pads for track and pads for road path, look at a set of track and road rotors as well. That way you won't bugger the pads with contamination from the other set if you don't clean the rotors with a sand between swapping the pads, and then you have to bed the pads to the rotors again to get the best performance.

For your car I would look at getting something like Hawk HPS or Blues, that will work on the track, but are still good enough for the road if you are aware that they need a little heat to work well, but cold take a little longer and will be noisier than a road pad. Other brand pads, I would look at something about the equivalent of those compounds that will do both track and road, track optimum, road compromised.

#19 benny

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 08:18 AM

So dad and I were having a look under the bonnet and dash, while looking at pics on the Internet.
A Patrol master cylinder was recommended. Which is most likely going to happen. But has anyone had a good look at the boosters too? I'd like to know if anyone has done sometime like that!
The mounting looks pretty much bolt on, piping will need re-routing and get a larger 1" bore.

Also, getting some new rotors
http://deliosbrakes....oducts/dynamix/
Posted Image
They apparently work quite well on the track, with reduced heat and fade. Which is what I'm after.
Think a set of race pads for track and changing back to street pads for on road stuff.



Ive been using DBA T2 slotted rotors for a while now and im a fan. What rotors did you use as a base?

#20 PeterAllen

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 09:45 AM

These comments may not be of specific help but here are some issues I had with a booster swap:

I fitted the booster from the VZ SS Ute I used as a donor car for the LS1- t56 - LSD diff. My thoughts were to use as much of the Holden components as I could so they would relate to each other and parts would be freely available.

- The push rod from the booster was too long but to cut it to length and re-threading to suit the clevis meant paying a brake shop to split the booster and rejoin after I'd cut and re-threaded.

- the dia of the booster was so large it interfered with the clutch m/c so I had to relocate the m/c (fitted the Holden one - that's a tale in itself). Relocating the clutch m/c meant reworking the structure of the pedal box so try to use a booster of a suitable dia.

- Legally you have to have a brake m/c reservoir with the capacity to match the the volume of fluid to move all calliper pistons the thickness of the brake pads. The Holden m/c just holds enough for the Wilwood set up I have but I'm using 4 spot fronts, not the 6 spots.






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