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#41 gav240z

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:22 AM

Carb RB30 Twin Cam? :)

Wasn't there an RB30 that was fed by a carby?

#42 d3c0y

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:30 AM

Yeah that would work and just put a twin cam head on it same same.

#43 44014

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:52 PM

Yep! The rb30 patrol had points and a carb.
Was not very spirited to drive...

#44 d3c0y

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:47 PM

Gav said with a twin cam head, i'm thinking it would be pretty spirited.

#45 DreamZproject

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:51 PM

Haha that sounds fantastic! Anyone want to make one for me?
Sure I have a spare 20k lying around...

#46 d3c0y

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:54 PM

what about the rest of the money?

#47 DreamZproject

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 05:51 PM

Wow, lots of ney-sayers here.

I realize that the cost of living is a little higher in Australia, compared to here, but it's all relative, I also believe that pay is higher as well...

That being said there is a lot of advice that is being spout as "required" and "the only way to do it" when it's not. There are many ways to accomplish this, and it's usually only after you have built and installed several set-ups that it becomes clear how to do it easily, it's that experience thing. ;)

For the record I have built or been involved in building and tuning several custom EFI systems, for engines that never had EFI, to conversions from difficult to tune EFI to easier systems.

I tend to use Delco (GM), that would be Holden for you guys ECMs for my conversions. They are plentiful, they are cheap, and they are extremely reliable. They are also easy to tune, and can be done cheaply, if you don't care about real time tuning, also included is onboard diagnostics. I am running my turbo L28 on a Delco ECM and have for about 5 years, works great. Why am I bringing this up? People tend to "Oh I have to go aftermarket to inject my old engine". No, no you don't, you can adapt other OEM EFI, and the great part about that is that the parent companies have spent Millions on development, to make sure they are reliable and perform well. The DIY community then takes these and hacks them for tuneability and adding features.

Personally I'm using OBD1 ECM, that is running wastespark DIS and bath fire injection, this was cheap, reliable and don't need "credits" to tune it. I could have easily went to an OBD2 ECM that would allow for SFI, but it's just not needed.

Thanks for the "option #3" link, I was not aware of this company and I think I will use these parts for my planned custom ITB conversion on a V6 engine I plan to use. :D

Getting a solid map signal is not that difficult, especially since you will be making a manifold or modifying and exiting one. You can run a tube from each runner below the throttle blade (but above the injector), to a common vacuum block, that is then fed to the MAP sensor. If you want to use an IAC valve, you need to replicate this set-up again, and have a separate block for the IAC valve. The reason for this is to not affect the MAP signal with the IAC valve directly. I do know of one person that made both work on a common IAC/vacuum plenum, but it was definitely not ideal.

Spark triggering and control is not that difficult either. When I first installed my system I ran out of time to get the DIS in off the bat, and so I used an electronic dizzy from an L28, from a '77 or so. I locked out the mechanical and vacuum advance. I then triggered a GM ignition control module, that fed the DRP (Distributor Reference Pulse, AKA RPM reference) and allowed the ECM to control the timing of the ignition. I then swapped in my DIS the following winter, that involved a custom (pretty simple) trigger wheel, using the same ECM, with a couple settings changed for the DIS offset. Aftermarket systems also have this ability. Some systems have the ability to have sequential spark control in addition to sequential injection, such as the Megasquirt 3.

If this was my first build, I'd do plenty of research, but I would hold off buying the ECM part, if I was going aftermarket, until most of the mechanical part was squared away. The reason for this is that the aftermarket changes so often, that the ECM you buy today may be "obsolete" next year, or at least a "better", "more improved" version may be available, that may work better for you. If I was going with an OEM set-up, such as what I like to do, then grabbing the ECM and related hardware can be done at anytime. I would plan which system I wanted to start with, even if the plan was to hold off on buying it. The reason for this is that certain ECMs will only work with certain hardware. Again, I'll go back to my Delco (GM) ECM, the ignition is easiest to interface with GM parts, due to the signals between the ICM (Ignition Control Module) and the ECM being somewhat specific. Going aftermarket you can usually use just about anything you can get your hands on, with a few exceptions. I do know of a universal adapter that is said to allow any ignition system to be used with a Delco ECM though. I'm not sure if it's released to the public yet though.

Other sensors and such, are less incidental, since most will use the same threads to attach, or be easily adapted, like coolant temp, manifold temp, TPS, etc, with a few specific exceptions, again researching what you want to use as a system, will make this easier in the end.

I always find it entertaining when people say "You NEED to dyno tune your set-up". Why? Are you driving your car on a dyno? I'm not, I'm driving mine on the street, so that's where I tune it. A dyno is great if you want to get max power numbers, but does next to nothing for driveability. Even "load cell dynos" will only get the tune so close. The best data is retrieved from where and how the vehicle will be driven. This is why I tune on a drive around the city and highway as the vehicle will be used. When I tune for other people I sit in the passenger seat and tell them to drive as they normally would to get a tune that suits that person. I do get the driver to drive in certain ways sometimes just to get into certain load points and RPM points that wouldn't normally be hit, just to get a wider range of tune, but that only usually happens when there seems to be a small hurdle to get tuned out.

Real time tuning is great and is one element I look for when deciding on an ECM to use, again this is another reason I like my Delco ECMs, with an EPROM Emulator, I have real time tuning that I can see the changes immediately as they are made. Obviously if I'm driving, I do it the old way of looking at logs or rather, keep track of what happened and when, pull over, make a change and re-test.

With careful planning an EFI system that works great, is reliable and is inexpensive can me put together.


Six_shooter I've thought about it for a while, and what you're saying makes a ton of sense. I think that this might be the path I'm going to go down.
There's heaps more i need to research, but just costing it up, this way seems to make sense. I don't need a hyper tuneable machine. Just something
that is a bit special.

The idea of using another cars ECU is ingenious! With the Delco ECM's, are car tuners familiar with interfacing with them? I have no clue on tuning cars
and i think that it may be something that is not worth my while spending hundreds of hours learning.

What is the advantage/ disadvantage of going DIS over using the L28ET dizzy with this sort of setup?

Costs; (partly second hand parts)
ITB's + injector bungs from racehead.com $750
DCOE Manifold $300???
LS1 coils $100 (wow they can be found cheap)
Leads $100
Delco ecm + harness $100?
EFI fuel pump etc.  ???
Injectors  ???
various sensors $150
Tuning $300

This looking right so far?

#48 nizm0zed

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:31 AM

I have a box full of Delco stuff, ECU's, throttle bodies, woring loom and plugs ect ect, and a Kalmaker SP3 fully programmable Delco ECU.
If your interested i'll get some pics over the weekend and send them to you?

#49 Six_Shooter

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:30 AM

Six_shooter I've thought about it for a while, and what you're saying makes a ton of sense. I think that this might be the path I'm going to go down.
There's heaps more i need to research, but just costing it up, this way seems to make sense. I don't need a hyper tuneable machine. Just something
that is a bit special.

The idea of using another cars ECU is ingenious! With the Delco ECM's, are car tuners familiar with interfacing with them? I have no clue on tuning cars
and i think that it may be something that is not worth my while spending hundreds of hours learning.

What is the advantage/ disadvantage of going DIS over using the L28ET dizzy with this sort of setup?

Costs; (partly second hand parts)
ITB's + injector bungs from racehead.com $750
DCOE Manifold $300???
LS1 coils $100 (wow they can be found cheap)
Leads $100
Delco ecm + harness $100?
EFI fuel pump etc.  ???
Injectors  ???
various sensors $150
Tuning $300

This looking right so far?


Ok, well if you use the OBD1 Delco stuff you won't really be able to use the LSI coils.

The LS1 coils are meant to be triggered directly from the ECM/PCM, the OBD1 is not set up this way, and requires an Ignition Control Module for this purpose, and also to tell the ECM when the engine is running and at what RPM. I can go into more detail, but it's not important right now. Suffice it to say this is why you need to research how things work together BEFORE buying anything.

Before I get into the advantages of DIS, I will also say that the L28ET will not work with the OBD1 Delco ECM either. The L28ET, while it was an improvement in control for the Nissan systems would provide no advantage when using a Delco EFI system, if it would even work. The problem here is that the L28ET dizzy uses an optical sensor, which does not interface (directly) with a GM ICM. The standard L28 electronic dizzy is perfect here, cheaper and easier to get a hold of. The only thing needed is to lock out the mechanical and vacuum advance. Though, thinking about it as I type this, you could set the ignition tables in the ECM to a value (possibly zero, I would have think about this), and let the dizzy do timing control, but then you're throwing away about 60% of what the ECM can do. Best IMO just to lock out the dizzy, if you are using a dizzy. I can link to an article on how to use the non-efi GM ECM with an L-series, the only difference becomes the 4 wires that connect to the ECM.

The advantages of DIS is that there are no moving parts to wear out, no contacts to wear down., you gain more precise spark control and hotter spark, since each coil can be charged longer than single coil system. You can also choose where to mount the coils, to possibly clean up the engine bay. I use an ICM and coil system from the gen II/III 60 degree V6, which is a FWD V6 found in many North American GM vehicles, I'm not aware of Australia getting these engines, but the 3800 style DIS systems are similar, and can be used for a conversion such as this.

The popular ECM to use in Australia for these types of conversion seems to be the '808, and I know these have been used with the 3800 style ignition system.

There is a device made by an Australian bloke that is meant to be a more universal Ignition Control Module to use virtually any trigger wheel available, and interface with the Delco ECM, but I am not sure if this is available to the public yet or not.

The only real fabrication here the trigger wheel that you will need to mount to the front of the crank pulley. It is slightly different between different GM ignition systems in notch layout and count, but I will attach pictures of mine to this post, to give you an idea.

As far as tuners being able to interface with the Delco ECM, it depends on what ECM specifically and what your local tuners are comfortable with. I'm one of the few around me that will tune the OBD1 Delco stuff, most people only do the OBD2, probably since there are more OBD2 vehicles around than OBD1, and there's no real hardware needed for ODB2, but there are limitations. I prefer my OBD1 tuning.

If you seriously want to look into the Delco I can link you to a couple of sites, one is based in Australia, the other is a site I helped to start.

Australia based Delco tuning forum (though they are expanding out from there):
http://pcmhacking.net/forums/

The one I help run, which seems to have mostly Delco people, though we do not discriminate:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/

#50 DreamZproject

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 01:08 PM

Ok, sounds good so far... one thing i am a little confused about with a DIS setup... What is a 3800 style DIS?
Which car am I pulling these from? is this the same gear that i would pull off an LS1?

#51 DreamZproject

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 01:25 PM

Hmmm after researching DIS a bit more. Pun intended.

I think it may be easier to use that 280z distributor you were talking about before i
choose to go on and use a DIS system (at least until i get the car running and decide
to change it). How does this effect what parts i will need?

#52 d3c0y

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 03:13 PM

3800 i'm guess is the commodore V6?


Your shopping list doesn't have any allowance for machining or welding the injector bungs on, a surge tank, efi fuel hose, fuel pressure regulator or air filters.

#53 DreamZproject

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:01 PM

yup i had them in the back of my head, but they are all incidentals (i suppose besides the injector bungs and the welding of them).
Ahhhhh I see, its the displacement of the engine no? 3800 = 3.8L engine? Anyway, i won'e be going down this route just yet anyway.
For now I'll stick with the seemingly more simple 280z distributor way.

#54 DreamZproject

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:30 PM

Oh, and what are peoples idea's on the best sort of filtration? I want to run this car as a semi often driver able
to take most conditions (ie no open trumpets). Are the K&N style filters on the end of each throttle body ok. (ie.
not running the velocity stacks, but a spacer running to its own individual filter)?

From what I've researched, it seems that having an airbox over the trumpets/ spacer with a CAI type air ram
gives pretty decent results with all the protection you need for a daily driver.

#55 Six_Shooter

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:18 AM

Yes, 3800 is the engine desgination/displacement.

You will want to run the velocity stacks regardless of what you do for filtration. The velocity stacks actually serve a great purpose in helping the enter and accelerate through the intake runners.

Personally while I love the like the look of individual filters (most of the time), I would on my own cars use either a single filter to feed all of the throttle bodies or do no less than a pair to a filter. The reason being is that it takes some effort to start to pull air through the filter. When a single cylinder has it's own filter the air passing through it is starting and stopping, causing the initial start to the ingestion by the engine to be the most difficult. If cylinders are at least paired up, there is usually the paired cylinder either at the beginning or end of it's period of intake open, or very near to, and this will promote the air to still be flowing through the filter, making it easier for the next ingestion cycle to pull in the air that it needs. With a single filter feeding all of the cylinders there is virtually always a constant pull of air through the filter making it very easy for all of the cylinders to pull in the air they need, without the starting and stopping of air flow through the filter.

#56 DreamZproject

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 02:18 PM

Yeah I decided I'd make my own airbox for it.
Okay. I think delco is the way to go. I don't understand 100% exactly what obd1 vs obd2 is about
But I trust your judgement on going obd1. Either way if I end up for some annoying reason not
Doing itbs ill definitely use a delco over an aftermarket ecm. Its just so much cheaper! What is
The best way about getting everything I need to run a tuneable delco for my set up?


#57 Six_Shooter

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:32 AM

Yeah I decided I'd make my own airbox for it.
Okay. I think delco is the way to go. I don't understand 100% exactly what obd1 vs obd2 is about
But I trust your judgement on going obd1. Either way if I end up for some annoying reason not
Doing itbs ill definitely use a delco over an aftermarket ecm. Its just so much cheaper! What is
The best way about getting everything I need to run a tuneable delco for my set up?


OBD = On Board Diagnostics

The 1 and 2 are designations of compliance to SAE/governmental regulations.

For North America (I believe it was similar in other countries/continents) OBD1 was up to 1995, and OBD2 started in 1995 and is the current diagnostics systems that every manufacturer needs to adhere to (At least in North America). I know there is a distinction between OBD1 and OBD2 standards in Australian, but I don't know the specifics. I have picked up this info through websites dealing with EFI tuning in many different countries.

The best thing you can do is follow the links I have posted, read about other people's conversions, and see what's available. I use Moates' products for my tuning hardware (www.moates.net). If I were in your shoes I would either run an '808 and $12P code (found at the pcmhacking.com site) since there is a board that can be installed is supposed to give some real time auto tuning ability, and flash through the OBD port, as opposed to using a separate EPROM emulator.

That being said as far as I'm concerned the Delco ECM is tunable in stock form, it just takes a programmer, and a UV eraser, along with some software, but is the long harder way to do it, datalogging, then programming an EPROM, swapping, rinse and repeat. I prefer using Emulators, for the price they save a LOT of time, and can be left in permanently if you wish. I have been running my car this way for about 5 years now.

For tuning software I use Tuner Pro RT (www.tunerpro.net), which is a free download and Mark greatly appreciates the $39 donation that will also get rid of the 10 second nag window at software start up.

#58 d3c0y

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:57 PM

What is the ETA on this thing in and running?

#59 DreamZproject

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:54 PM

Ah this is perfect thanks six shooter! Decoy, i spoke to a very wise man today and i quote;
"you are goingto have a million other thing you are going to need money on, simply to get the car on the
road! Just start with a set of carbs".

You know, it just makes sense! I'll put my build together so it is capable of running efi in the not too
distant future so i can save my dosh and get the car on the road first.

I expect that going to efi will be an absolute minimum of 2 years away, as i can't see getting the car on
the road within a year (minimum).

I'll remember this tread at some point in the future guys and one day I'll get around to doing it! For now
I truly thank everyone who logically talked through all of this. I really have a solid idea in my head now
of how it would be done, but for the moment, it's for another day.

Watch this space in a few of years time.... :D

#60 d3c0y

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 12:05 AM

Like some of us said on page 1 of this thread?




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