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MyEnquiringMind

S20 for sale...

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I think a whole 432 in-need-of-loving would be a better way to spend the money. They seem to be sub-100k, you get the whole car, all the stuff to make it fit, and most importantly the 'p' at the start of the firewall stamp, with an ID tag to suit...

 

 

I thought OS Giken's second run of their twincam L donks were around the same ballpark price as this? 2x the powah, hell of a lot rarer too :/

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I thought OS Giken's second run of their twincam L donks were around the same ballpark price as this? 2x the powah, hell of a lot rarer too :/

 

As much as I'd like an S20, I think I'd rather this option also.

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I thought OS Giken's second run of their twincam L donks were around the same ballpark price as this? 2x the powah, hell of a lot rarer too :/

 

 

PMC can make a 2 valve head flow pretty well for a hell of a lot less, dont forget you need another $20k for the motor to strap the head to and tune.

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If anybody buys an S20-powered car, or just an S20 engine, I very much doubt they are buying it with any thought of the "powah". If they do, they are missing the point ( shirley? )....

 

And comparing an S20 to an OSG TC24 conversion ( and all the parts needed to go with that ) or any other 'tuned' Nissan L-gata 6, with the deciding factor being power, is a little bit wrong-headed. If that comparison made any sense then all then the people paying multi million figures for Ferrari 250 GTOs and the like would be missing the point, as they could go and buy any number of cars with more "powah", and keep the change. 

 

I like a powerful engine just as much as anybody else does, but I didn't get my S20 engine with any dreams of high power. If I had to sum it up, for me, it was about something a little bit more nebulous than that. Something more to do with flavour, perhaps?

 

A Casio G-Shock keeps better time than a '67 Rolex Mil-Sub. If I had to choose between the two, I'd go for the Mil-Sub ( and be late for appointments.... ). Better to have both, of course! 

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Yeah bit pricey for engine alone. Seen complete cars with s20 engine for less than that. Genuine 432 with s20 semi finished for 48k or complete rebuilt car for 80k

 

Though s20 parts seem to be available just alightly pricey but than again its all relative expensive car expensive parts

 

Anyone want 432 magnesium alloys for 10k or solex complete setup triple carbs for 7k.

 

As Alan said s20 is the king regardless of power. Having that in engine bay craps all over anything else. even if it only makes 1/5th of  even a stock l20. Thank god it doesnt but....

 

Its just engine porn.

 

 

Like jarrod said one day  ;D

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You wouldn't care about power; it would be just the sound and the fact that it's in between your strut towers.

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As usual Alan, right :)

 

Though, the reason I mentioned OS Giken's motor rather than pouring $60k into an L28 (or is that L34?), was not anything to do with power (I mis-spelled to stick a bit of sarcasm in). It's flavor. The same reason people think the LY28 is cool, or why people spend what looks like a small country's GDP on a 250 GTO, because it's a rare piece of history... Sure, it did not come from Nissan, but it has the same panache which people love about the S20 powered cars...

 

The G-Shock is to a Mil Sub, as is an RB25 to the S20.

I think a perpetual calendar from JLC might be a fairer comparison ;)

 

 

P.s. I should have mentioned 'powah' in a more Clarkson-esque manner.. Sarcasm does not travel too well through the inter-toobs.

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As usual Alan, right :)

 

Please tell my Mrs....

 

P.s. I should have mentioned 'powah' in a more Clarkson-esque manner.. Sarcasm does not travel too well through the inter-toobs.

 

It's OK, I got the intention I think. That's why I quoted it like that. Liked it. I saw mid-80s bubble-perm Clarkson mouthing it in my head....  ;)

 

Don't necessarily agree about the JLC Perpetual Calendar, though. That's got to equate to something more exotic than an S20, I reckon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I wasn't talking about the S20 either. I was saying the TC-24 is only half the story of making an engine to support that head AND if you are going to spend all that money on a TC-24 you are going to be want to chasing 400hp+ since you can do that with a 2 valve for less money. Unless of cause you want it for wank factor (like the S20).

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Unless of cause you want it for wank factor (like the S20).

 

PMC powah is really only "wank factor" too though, isn't it?

 

Or is there some other reason why you need it?

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PMC powah is really only "wank factor" too though, isn't it?

 

Or is there some other reason why you need it?

 

PMC is a dirty acronym in your book isn't it :P

 

Yes, i'm going to track it. Slow and factory original isn't for everyone.

 

With your extensive involvement in racing over the years I'm sure you understand that. ;)

 

 

I'm sure that most people on this forum would be disappointed by how slow a stock S20 really is for the money. I think this is important when spending $50k on an engine, that you are happy with the level of performance you get. You have that replica KPGC10 racecar right? Does that have a stock S20 in it or is modified?

I get the whole rare and collectible thing, but I was just making the point that some people get carried away with how awesome a TC-24B equipped engine would be,

but with modern tech you can build a 2 valve head perform at the same sort of power levels that these Tomei strokers did back in the day, instead of just talking about it.

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PMC is a dirty acronym in your book isn't it :P 

 

Nope. Not at all. But you can carry on believing that if you want. 

 

Yes, i'm going to track it. Slow and factory original isn't for everyone.

 

With your extensive involvement in racing over the years I'm sure you understand that. ;)

 

Yes, I do. But what I'm saying is that it's all "wank factor". Everything is. I don't want to get all philosophical on you, but what's it all for? You're wanking, just the same as everybody you're pointing the finger at.... 

 

I'm sure that most people on this forum would be disappointed by how slow a stock S20 really is for the money.

 

If they were "disappointed" by a stock engine, then the real problem is the difference between reality and their expectations. I wouldn't blame an engine for that. If your expectations are like those of an eight year old schoolboy then, yes, you'll be disappointed. As I said before, if you're investing all your hard-earned in an S20 engine or an S20-powered car, and you're expecting to be impressed by the "powah", then you've missed the point.... 

 

I think this is important when spending $50k on an engine, that you are happy with the level of performance you get. You have that replica KPGC10 racecar right? Does that have a stock S20 in it or is modified?

 

LOL. First of all, my KPGC10 is not a replica racecar. In fact, it's been prepped as a ( club ) race and track day car for most of its life. No, the engine is not stock. But seeing as it didn't cost me $50k or anything like it, maybe I can adjust my expectations anyway? The S20 in my 432R replica project car didn't cost me anything like $50k either. That too is not stock.

 

Once we take away the question of cost, does your argument still make sense? My everyday driver / tow car / family hack has more power, more torque, better braking, better handling and better dynamics than any of the old Nissans I own. It also has comfy heated ( leather! ) seats, air conditioning that works, seats five plus luggage and tows like a train. In fact, what it does well are all the things I bought it for. It cost me less than any of my old Nissans would cost to buy, but that comparison misses the point doesn't it? I don't own any of my old Nissans because they outperform the Audi, I own them because they offer me something that the Audi never will... 

 

I get the whole rare and collectible thing....

 

I hadn't noticed  ;)

 

....but I was just making the point that some people get carried away with how awesome a TC-24B equipped engine would be, but with modern tech you can build a 2 valve head perform at the same sort of power levels that these Tomei strokers did back in the day, instead of just talking about it.

 

I think a lot of the reaction you see to the OSG twin cam conversions is about something other than whatever power they claim for them. It's something more cerebral than numbers on a dyno sheet. It's that elusive thing that you can't put in a tin and stack on a supermarket shelf. People covet things like that because they are more than Dialectic Physics. Why would somebody pay a lot of money for an oil painting when a photo of the same scene taken by a camera phone might be "better"? If anybody who owns a 40+ year old car doesn't get that, then I would wonder why they owned a 40+ year old car in the first place.

 

You see I don't really care what "modern tech" can do with a ( 40+ year old ) 2 valve head. I'm more interested in what the factory were doing with them in 1973 than what anybody can do with them in 2013. That's why I dream of LR24s and LY24s running on ECGI, and GR8Cs on mechanical injection. It's not about the "powah", it's about the flavour...     

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Once we take away the question of cost, does your argument still make sense? My everyday driver / tow car / family hack has more power, more torque, better braking, better handling and better dynamics than any of the old Nissans I own. It also has comfy heated ( leather! ) seats, air conditioning that works, seats five plus luggage and tows like a train. In fact, what it does well are all the things I bought it for. It cost me less than any of my old Nissans would cost to buy, but that comparison misses the point doesn't it? I don't own any of my old Nissans because they outperform the Audi, I own them because they offer me something that the Audi never will

very well put. I was talking about just that the other day with a race car fabricator. A new Toyota Corolla at a guess will have a faster 0-60mph and top speed than our 40 year old sports cars, and more than likely do a lap around any track faster too. But that is not the point is it? Drive a Corolla around the track then a s30z without knowing the lap times ask the driver which felt faster..... my pick would be the car that is more raw, more alive, ie the car that had more sole and character the s30z. Is there anymore that needs saying.

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We're getting down to personal opinion on some of these things now, which is fine but i want to clear a couple of things up:

 

Yes, I do. But what I'm saying is that it's all "wank factor". Everything is. I don't want to get all philosophical on you, but what's it all for? You're wanking, just the same as everybody you're pointing the finger at.... 

I agree with you and in my opinion if it costs a lot then it wants to be at least what i call moderately fast. That's just my person preference. I was going to write something about each to their own and concourse cars etc but didn't think it was necessary.

 

If they were "disappointed" by a stock engine, then the real problem is the difference between reality and their expectations. I wouldn't blame an engine for that. If your expectations are like those of an eight year old schoolboy then, yes, you'll be disappointed. As I said before, if you're investing all your hard-earned in an S20 engine or an S20-powered car, and you're expecting to be impressed by the "powah", then you've missed the point....

I was just throwing some generalizations out there that i don't necessarily fit into myself, e.g. how fast an S20 powered car is. I'm well aware of what kind of performance this would have especially after building a high powered L28. However, I'll admit I have definitely been caught up in the Internet hype over this motor over the years and i think that just automatically gives you higher expectations of what this super rare, giant-slaying race motor that dominated Japanese racing in the early 70s would be like. Much like i bet people go for rides in R32 GTRs for the first time and go "What's the hype all about?".

 

LOL. First of all, my KPGC10 is not a replica racecar. In fact, it's been prepped as a ( club ) race and track day car for most of its life. No, the engine is not stock. But seeing as it didn't cost me $50k or anything like it, maybe I can adjust my expectations anyway? The S20 in my 432R replica project car didn't cost me anything like $50k either. That too is not stock.

I'm sure they aren't modified for more power though, its for more authenticity right?

It wasn't supposed to be a dig at your car, I love that thing and would love to own it. I meant to say factory race replica sorry, because of the paint job. Seems you weren't overwhelmed enough by the S20's nostalgia to leave it stock though :P So you and I can all agree that a modified S20 is better than a stock one though since both yours are modified?

 

Once we take away the question of cost, does your argument still make sense? My everyday driver / tow car / family hack has more power, more torque, better braking, better handling and better dynamics than any of the old Nissans I own. It also has comfy heated ( leather! ) seats, air conditioning that works, seats five plus luggage and tows like a train. In fact, what it does well are all the things I bought it for. It cost me less than any of my old Nissans would cost to buy, but that comparison misses the point doesn't it? I don't own any of my old Nissans because they outperform the Audi, I own them because they offer me something that the Audi never will...

My old Nissan does out perform my daily drive Falcon XR6 ute in all aspects, including power!!!!!!! Oh wait, Ute can carry more haha, but the ute does make more power than an S20.

Again I get this, I have a comfortable daily drive and my Zed which i'm building into a no compromise classic performance car. If i didn't get it, I wouldn't have the zed and would just have a V8 Falcon with a supercharger.

 

But sorry, not rich enough to take cost out of the equation and seriously cost has everything to do with it or I would have one of all of the above (S20, TC24, L28, KPGC10, 432R) and a shed load of classic Ferraris. And then everyone else would have them too and then none of those things would be rare or special, i think taking cost out is pointless.

 

I could have bought an S20, but I wanted to have an engine that is both powerful and in line with the heritage and tradition of the car. Surely a stroker L28 with triple Webers isn't that sacrilegious and as i said at the start that's just personal opinion isn't it? Why are you making out horse power to be a negative thing?

 

I hadn't noticed  ;) 

That's because you thought i was saying S20s are a bag of shiver and have no place in the world. This was not my point.

 

I think a lot of the reaction you see to the OSG twin cam conversions is about something other than whatever power they claim for them. It's something more cerebral than numbers on a dyno sheet. It's that elusive thing that you can't put in a tin and stack on a supermarket shelf. People covet things like that because they are more than Dialectic Physics. Why would somebody pay a lot of money for an oil painting when a photo of the same scene taken by a camera phone might be "better"? If anybody who owns a 40+ year old car doesn't get that, then I would wonder why they owned a 40+ year old car in the first place.

Yes but in MY OPINION I don't think it's worth a $35k premium, my zed gives elusive ball tingle without it, it's still got an L in it. Also for the price of that head i built my whole L28. Even if i had the money i don't think i would spend it on a TC24 it's just too much. You would be talking $50k+ to get a running motor. I would rather go buy an RX-4 coupe or a KGC10 with the money.

 

Does this mean that people with RB conversions, or any modern engine conversion for that matter don't get the elusive tingles that people with old motors get?

 

You see I don't really care what "modern tech" can do with a ( 40+ year old ) 2 valve head. I'm more interested in what the factory were doing with them in 1973 than what anybody can do with them in 2013. That's why I dream of LR24s and LY24s running on ECGI, and GR8Cs on mechanical injection. It's not about the "powah", it's about the flavour...

I'm running carbs and a distributor still, so modern tech i mean 98 pump fuel, modern machining methods cheap and easy to get forged internals and other parts, or does that leave a bad taste in your mouth too?

Say these LY24s are making 300hp that's all well and good because i'm betting you wont ever own one, but if i make an L28 make that power isn't that giving me an authentic driving experience? Experience beats dreaming in my book hands down.

 

Again you have just said it's your opinion, which is fine with me. I love reading about LY and S20 motors and all the trick factory stuff of old, I just feel like you are saying that i'm wrong with what I think.

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You see I don't really care what "modern tech" can do with a ( 40+ year old ) 2 valve head. I'm more interested in what the factory were doing with them in 1973 than what anybody can do with them in 2013. That's why I dream of LR24s and LY24s running on ECGI, and GR8Cs on mechanical injection. It's not about the "powah", it's about the flavour...     

 

This is an important point, it's about preserving the past in a way. Working within the constraints of the period and what was available at the time.

 

1 of my favorite S20 videos is this 1.

 

It's just that exhaust note, you can't beat it. Sure you could turbo the S20 and get more powah! But it would loose something special in the process in my opinion.

 

For the same reason Guitar Collectors love the old 50s and 60s Gibsons vs Modern Gibson Les Paul's or playing that old video game on an emulator is not as good as the real deal vintage console and joystick.

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Did you even read my post Gav?  :'( :'( :'(

 

 

shiver sounding, futuristic, 2 valve for comparison haha.

 

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Did you even read my post Gav?  :'( :'( :'(

 

 

shiver sounding, futuristic, 2 valve for comparison haha.

 

 

Yeah I did matey, I love both L-series and S20 engine sounds :). I was just agreeing that I like the history side of things and sure you can always make improvements using what's available now, including modern engine head porting techniques etc..  but there is something about keeping it 'period' that has it's appeal also.

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in my opinion if it costs a lot then it wants to be at least what i call moderately fast.

 

Devil's advocate here - why ??

 

Why must something be "moderately fast" to be desirable ?

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...... I just feel like you are saying that i'm wrong with what I think.

 

I'll have to make this short for now ( work calls... ), but.....

 

That's exactly what I'm not saying. I'm responding to your finger pointing ( at the S20 in particular ) and your talk of power to $ ratios. You're welcome to think what you like about them of course, but - I don't want flog the dead horse again - to judge such things primarily on the power they give is ( you guessed it ) missing the point.

 

I've drawn all the analogies for you. If you don't get where I'm coming from, then fine. Just don't tell me I'm wrong and then in the same breath tell me not to say you are wrong! We'll just end up going round in circles.

 

Neither of my S20 engines is stock. They are both modified ( shhhhh... ) to give more "powah". Come to think of it, so are my L-gata engines. I hope I haven't spoiled your preconceptions of me.

 

Here's a straight no-spin question: Have you ever driven an S20-powered car? If you did, was the engine stock or modified? I'm interested to hear your opinion. For me, driving a couple of really well looked after 432s gave me a kick in the direction I have taken over the last few years; I began to be more and more interested in the whole package ( 4.44 ratio LSD, FS5C71-A, S20 warmed over slightly ) as a more 'period correct' entity than something that had been put together after wheeling a giant virtual shopping trolley through Autobacs. I started taking non-period stuff off my cars to replace it with period-correct stuff, although I have been forced to be a little pragmatic.   

 

A short word about bang for buck: As some people know, my KPGC10 was a philanthropic gift. However you look at it ( remembering that - sometimes - the most expensive things in life can be free... ) that's pretty good bang for buck. The ( 432-specific ) S20 in my 432R replica project wasn't a gift, but it wasn't $50k or anything like it ( I haven't even got that in the whole car so far ). Since that S20 engine is very likely to hold - if not increase - in value for the time I'm likely to own it, it seems like another thing giving me good bang for buck. Again, it's not all about power. I think you'll find that the majority of people who own S20 engines and S20-engined cars didn't originally pay anything like the asking prices you see when they hit the open market today. Same is true with Ferrari 250GTOs and all sorts of other exotica too. 

 

And enough with the anti-PMC stuff already. I'm not anti-PMC. I speak as I find, and if somebody comes out with something that I see fault in then I'll flag it up. There are no holy cows for me. I'm an equal-opportunities critic.     

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You're all forgetting the really good one!

 

U20 with factory options, in a SR311

 

Direct lap time comparisons, to a, then new, ligthened caged and prepped for Tarmac rallyspirt, a R35 GTR, so some 42 years age gap.

The 1968  year model SR311, was only 1second a lap slower, over 2100 metres, with corners.

 

Meh, S20!

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You're all forgetting the really good one!

 

U20 with factory options, in a SR311

 

Direct lap time comparisons, to a, then new, ligthened caged and prepped for Tarmac rallyspirt, a R35 GTR, so some 42 years age gap.

The 1968  year model SR311, was only 1second a lap slower, over 2100 metres, with corners.

 

Meh, S20!

lol shame we don't have any racing here in NZ (that I know of)

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