Author Topic: 240Z - Year of manufacture?  (Read 3386 times)

Offline campbell

Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2010, 11:14:19 AM »
Yes I am the owner of HS30 00016 and the seat belts are branded 1969. Many early 240z's came to Australia with no indicators in the guards. I believe 00016 came to Australia and than traveled to some pacific islands and possibly even PNG before ending up in New Zealand were I purchased it in 1994 (I think) This car has now been back in Australia since 1998 and is now under going a major rebuild.

Pete Campbell

Offline HS30-H

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: London, England, UK.
  • Posts: 73
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2010, 07:21:09 PM »
About a week ago I was going over some books I have now I am not 100% sure if the info is correct but I am sure Alan (HS30-H) could confirm. Anyway it talked about the works cars HS30-00026 and HS30-00025 that were build for the last part of the 1969 rally series.

Hi Mike,
HS30-00026 & HS30-00025 were both part of a batch of works rally cars that were built specifically to take part in the 1970 RAC Rally here in the UK. The 1970 RAC Rally took place between 13th and 18th November, and the cars arrived in the UK ( coming off the transport ship from Japan in Belgium, and driven over to the UK on a normal car ferry by the Japanese mechanics ) during October. They were 'tested' a bit more here in the UK ( drivers and navigators for the most part never having seen them before! ) and fettled a little bit to driver / navigator preference, and were based at Old Woking Service Station.

Now, it's a little tricky to compare these works rally cars to normal road cars ( the bodyshells of the pre-72 season works 240Z rally cars were quite radically different to those of standard road cars ) but they were given body serial numbers from the standard road car sequence ( in this case, normal 'HS30' RHD export body serial number sequence ) and therefore we can compare rough build dates for the bodies, but not necessarily completed cars. I think it's likely that the bodies for this first batch of RHD works rally cars came off the production line in early 1970, and from there went to the competitions department at Oppama.   

Quote from: NZeder
EDIT: Ok did come checking on this site and looks like HS30-H has post a bit of info here
http://www.viczcar.com/forum/index.php/topic,5612.msg48093.html#msg48093
So it looks like the very early HS30-000xx cars might have well be build in 1969 but might not have been actually sold until after the L24 cranks were fixed. Looking over some other internet based info (which you can't always or shouldn't trust) looks like the engine numbers in the early cars might be 1970 based not 1969. If this is true then it tie in with the L24 harmonic issue putting a hold on the export HS30 (ie RHD) cars. So the whole bodies could have been complete, interior, etc and just the engine removed or not installed while the issue was sorted.

One of the things that's been messing up the story about the early RHD 'export' cars is the fact that sources in the USA were for many years putting out erroneous and negative data about them. These sources insisted that no RHD '240Z' had been built in 1969 ( even though the factory RHD export parts manuals contradict this ) and sadly this erroneous data stuck. It stuck to such an extent that we still have something of a battle on our hands to get certain people to accept that it is completely untrue.

Luckily we now know better, and the hard data comes from Nissan Shatai themselves - the people who actually built the cars. Their data tells us that HS30-00001 was the seventh S30-series Z to be given a body serial number ( the six in front of it were S30-00001, HLS30-00001, PS30-00001, HLS30-00002, S30-00002 & PS30-00002 ) and this all happened before the end of June 1969..........

As we know, during testing of the earliest cars it was found that a crankshaft harmonic problem existed in the L24 export engines. Obviously this was not a problem on the 'S30'-prefixed cars ( L20A engines ) or the 'PS30'-prefixed cars ( S20 twin cam engines ) so production for those models was not affected. However, production of LHD export cars was slowed right down just at the point when it was supposed to be getting into full swing, and it is fair to assume that it affected RHD export cars too. This was in September to December 1969.

There's no doubt that LHD export north American market cars were the primary volume market, but Nissan were taking RHD export markets seriously too. The fact that these RHD export markets required at least two different specs ( Australia/NZ market and UK market ) with differing needs / regulations will have affected things too. UK 'Type Approval' regulations were changed right at the end of 1969, and this caught Nissan slightly on the hop with regard to lighting. By all accounts, late 1969 and early 1970 was something of a crazy time at Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant......

So, as Mike says, I think it is very likely that Nissan had built some HS30-prefixed RHD export cars before the crank harmonic problem was solved. They will certainly have built some complete cars, but there's also a very good chance that they part-built some cars and put them to one side until the new L24s with the re-designed cranks came on stream. From looking at cars we already know, it seems likely that this earliest batch of 'HS30'-prefixed cars might only have numbered around 20-something. There appears to have been a big gap whilst other matters were solved ( LHD export demand took Nissan Shatai by surprise...... ) and RHD export production never really got into its stride until late 1970.

So there were 'HS30'-prefixed cars made in 1969 and early 1970, but we have to look at the cars on a case-by-case basis to establish their likely 'production' date. We have to bear that gap in production in mind, and also expect to find the details of the cars differing slightly to what we might expect, as the specs were a little rubbery to begin with. Tricky isn't it?!





It's a pity the original poster on this thread didn't let us know how he got on with his car. It'd be interesting to know what he found.

Pete ( Campbell ),
HS30-00016 - great! Good to hear of another early HS30 still surviving. Congrats! I'm very envious.

Cheers,
Alan T.               

Offline NZeder

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: Auckland, NZ
  • Posts: 1799
    • http://nzeder.net
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 06:27:58 AM »
Thanks for the detailed post Alan.

Pete good to hear from you. Will shoot you a PM

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Offline Mr Camouflage

  • must stop buying z's with sunroofs
  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: Perth
  • Posts: 590
  • www.wazcars.com
    • www.wazcars.com
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 12:20:19 PM »
Yes I am the owner of HS30 00016 and the seat belts are branded 1969. Many early 240z's came to Australia with no indicators in the guards.

Doesn't that just mean the seatbelts were made in 1969. Whats the original engine number of #16?

All Aussie 240Z's didn't have indicators in the guards. That was introduced with the 260Z.
www.nostalgictrio.com
'65 Silvia CSP311 #340 & #342
'70 & 72 240Z
'73 240K Hardtop & 77 Sedan
'84 300ZX <-- For Sale
'88 Skyline GTS-X (Daily)
'01 Prius (Soon-to-be Daily)
Sold:
Z31 Turbo, Super 6, 240Z, 77 Celica, 808 coupe, TX3 4WD

Offline HS30-H

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: London, England, UK.
  • Posts: 73
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »
Doesn't that just mean the seatbelts were made in 1969.

Yes, but it's only one of a whole host of clues that need to be added up and cross-referenced in order to give a more complete picture of the likely 'build date'.

Comparing the engine block number to the engine block numbers of other cars ( bearing in mind that engines were not necssarily fitted sequentially ) will also be a clue, but the engine could have been fitted some time later than the rest of the car was put together if it was one of the cars that was allegedly 'held up' by the crank re-design.

We then get into that philosophical question of the actual 'birth date' of the car: Is it the day that the car finally gets its 'OK' sticker on the window and is driven out of the factory, or is it some time earlier? I don't know how anyone else feels about it, but I can't help feeling that a car can exist with its own identity even some time before it is officially 'finished'. I'm imagining a small batch of cars that are without their engines, but otherwise complete, standing on their own in a corner of the Hiratsuka plant. They might even have been there for a couple of months.

If the cars were completed - except for the engine installation - in November 1969, but didn't get their 'OK' stickers until early February 1970, then are they 'November 1969' build date, or 'February 1970' build date......?

 

Offline zedrally

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: 3 weeks in the middle of the Indian Ocean the other in Melbourne
  • Posts: 232
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 06:21:46 AM »
Doesn't that just mean the seatbelts were made in 1969. Whats the original engine number of #16?

All Aussie 240Z's didn't have indicators in the guards. That was introduced with the 260Z.

What everyone seem's to forget is that the original seat belts where replaced with the ADR of the day, (In Australia), these where Australian made, not Japanese.
Whether there is a date on these, I have no idea, but it won't be a Japansese date.
Surprise no mention of 007 (?) has been made, seems to have gone to ground over the years?
Bogged but not beaten........

Offline Mr Camouflage

  • must stop buying z's with sunroofs
  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: Perth
  • Posts: 590
  • www.wazcars.com
    • www.wazcars.com
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 07:57:16 AM »
Yeah, I though that was the case with the seat belts. Maybe car hs30-00016 was never sold new in Australia, and therefore kept its original belts.

Also the 240Z didn't go on sale in Australia until September 1970. Which makes me wonder whether Nissan would have produced large numbers of LHD export cars when their export markets weren't ready for them yet?


www.nostalgictrio.com
'65 Silvia CSP311 #340 & #342
'70 & 72 240Z
'73 240K Hardtop & 77 Sedan
'84 300ZX <-- For Sale
'88 Skyline GTS-X (Daily)
'01 Prius (Soon-to-be Daily)
Sold:
Z31 Turbo, Super 6, 240Z, 77 Celica, 808 coupe, TX3 4WD

Offline zedrally

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: 3 weeks in the middle of the Indian Ocean the other in Melbourne
  • Posts: 232
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 09:53:40 AM »
Reading back over this thread, it's becoming  evident that if 016 has the factory seat belts, it had not made it's way originally into Australia, unless a PO had retro fitted self retracting seat belts.
In which case they would have come off a 260, which really would throw a spanner in the build date!

So which belts does it have, factory  self retracting or lap sash aussie originals?

This is a vital piece of information which only occurred in Aussie imported zeds.

Once we have that info then we can speculate as to it's original port of entry. I know this question has been raised many times over the years, there was a thread in Classic Zcar if memory serves me right in which I listed the manufacturer (can't duck out to the 240 as it's being stripped prior to rebuild). I'm sure Alan & Craig (MrC) plus others contributed to it all those years ago. (or have I confused it with a Goertz thread)?
edit: grammer
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 10:16:06 AM by zedrally »
Bogged but not beaten........

Offline NZeder

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: Auckland, NZ
  • Posts: 1799
    • http://nzeder.net
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2010, 11:13:15 AM »
Good question I sold #16 some 14+ years ago so I can't recall but Peter might have the original belts. I know they looked as they had never been replaced aka what was either installed at the factory or the first country the car was sold in - either way the belts have 1969 stamped on them according to Peter. It would be good to get other info from the belts as it might give a clue to were the car was first sold if replaced ie if they have a OZ or NZ safety standard etc.

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Offline zedrally

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: 3 weeks in the middle of the Indian Ocean the other in Melbourne
  • Posts: 232
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2010, 12:56:43 PM »
Can you remember if they where self retracting?
Bogged but not beaten........

Offline NZeder

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: Auckland, NZ
  • Posts: 1799
    • http://nzeder.net
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2010, 04:36:45 PM »
Can you remember if they where self retracting?
they were not self retracting if I recall just a fixed adjustment type = a pain when I put it on the track as they were coming loose all the time.

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Offline zedrally

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: 3 weeks in the middle of the Indian Ocean the other in Melbourne
  • Posts: 232
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2010, 04:43:06 PM »
Well that answers the question, It was Aussie delivery.
Bogged but not beaten........

Offline Mr Camouflage

  • must stop buying z's with sunroofs
  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: Perth
  • Posts: 590
  • www.wazcars.com
    • www.wazcars.com
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2010, 06:42:55 PM »
Were JDM belts for 69/70 self retracting? That's something I wasn't aware of.
www.nostalgictrio.com
'65 Silvia CSP311 #340 & #342
'70 & 72 240Z
'73 240K Hardtop & 77 Sedan
'84 300ZX <-- For Sale
'88 Skyline GTS-X (Daily)
'01 Prius (Soon-to-be Daily)
Sold:
Z31 Turbo, Super 6, 240Z, 77 Celica, 808 coupe, TX3 4WD

Offline zedrally

  • Registered User
  • *
  • Location: 3 weeks in the middle of the Indian Ocean the other in Melbourne
  • Posts: 232
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2010, 07:07:47 PM »
I don't have access to the parts CD ATM to verify this, but working from memory (might be rum affected as I type), they (the seat belts) where self retracting ala 260Z style. Alan (HS-30-H) may have to expand on this as it's possible that they weren't and I've made a big mistake. If I have then I suffer from foot in the mouth disease...

Although I can't think of any reason that lap sash belts where replaced with ....drum roll ...lap sash belts... Then again, they replaced the retractables with lap sash, so Jan , what where they thinking?
Bogged but not beaten........

Offline Zedman240

  • Dimitri V
  • Donating Member
  • Registered User
  • ***
  • Location: SE Melbourne
  • Posts: 3550
  • 'I hate it when people spell my name rong'
Re: 240Z - Year of manufacture?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2010, 07:18:23 PM »
My 240Z (#121) when i first bought it, had non retracting lap sash belts. A US 240Z 73 model had retractable belts but mounted in a little enclosure behind the seats where the floor kicks up at 45' at the rear before the vertical area where the tool boxes are. Not sure on earlier models though. 
HS30-00121 'early girl' .........Me love zeds long time..
RS30-15224 'older girl" in progress!
Breaks - Something that fails.
Brakes - Stop your car.
There - in  or  at  that  place  ( opposed  to  here).
Their - of, belonging to, made by, or done by them