Author Topic: S30 - Racing and Period mods  (Read 5377 times)

Offline HS30-H

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2012, 11:21:25 PM »
Just reading my book "Super Profile" It is going to be real hard to prove history in 1969, the book says.
Quote: Datsun chose the Tokyo Motor show of November 1969 to launch the 240z, and in only a few months the first production cars were arriving in the States.

Again, that's a perfect example of "240Z" history being divorced from S30-series Z range history in the way that it has always - mistakenly - been by non-Japanese writers and enthusiasts. The author ( James Morris ) didn't really know the first thing about the home market models, and saw them as something different from the "240Z". You can still see the same - mistaken - philosophy today on websites like zhome.com. These people appear to think that the '240Z' is/was head and shoulders above all the Japanese market models. However, the term "240Z" doesn't mean just one model, one variant, or even one spec. if you look at the different market versions as well as the domestic Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L and Fairlady 240ZG, you can see that the term "240Z" can mean any number of things...

The correct way to look at it is to view the first generation S30-series Zs as a family of models, at concept, in design, in engineering, at launch and in production. It would solve a lot of problems, and avoid a lot of confusion.   

In any case, it's indisputable that the S30-series Z was made and sold in Japan before the end of 1969. The rest of the world - including the hallowed USA - was a different matter.

Online NZeder

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 05:48:38 AM »
Mike,
I'd be prepared to supply certain photos as part of a properly organised representation / application / claim to ratify and legalise certain parts and specs for racing, but I don't like putting too much stuff up on the internet. It ends up all over the place, and that can dilute its effectiveness....

Hope you understand.
Cheers,
Alan T.
I understand and respect that and it makes sense. I am sure this is why we don't see online info on MG with factory fitted webers etc

Jason with your rules in Australia you should race Nissan/Prince Skyline GT-B factory fitted with 5spd, lsd, triple dcoe 40 webers and raced in Australia and New Zealand in the 60's.

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Offline dat2kman

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 06:17:02 AM »
I understand and respect that and it makes sense. I am sure this is why we don't see online info on MG with factory fitted webers etc

Jason with your rules in Australia you should race Nissan/Prince Skyline GT-B factory fitted with 5spd, lsd, triple dcoe 40 webers and raced in Australia and New Zealand in the 60's.
Mike, over the years there have been three or four Prince Skyline GT-B's raced, fitted with above standard items, the category is Group N ( production touring cars, up to 1973 cut off date)
The attitude and driving style of Group N, tends to er on side of a full contact sport, car damage and cost is high. Gp S is a little more gentile!

Yes the issue of Webers on MGB, is intetesting, as when the Datsun fraternity has requested to be shown what paperwork and evidence was presented to CAMS, re Webbers, so that the Datsun guys may provide as good a document/evidence etc, it is not forthcoming, the best excuse i got was, "oh it was so long ago, in early 1990's that we didnt keep those records, but it is all fact, so we allow them to use webers"
Sheesh!

Alan HS30, what possibility is thete to obtain a scanned email copy of whatever Nissan issued advertising, pamphlets, dealer papers or documents, that show corelating dates or confirmation.
For example, say, a full page scan from a magazine showing a quarter page advert for a dealer selling a new car with the extra items fitted, and on same page would be the date of issue of magazine, and other non relevant period style adverts or articles.
Ie an old 1971 copy of say a british motorsport magazine, a section of american newspaper, a dealers advertisement
( this i believe was what the MG guys supplied, an advert showed a single UK dealer was selling them on new cars, CAMS accepted this)
If you are uneasy with open publication on the internet/websites as per above, a diect email would be preffered.
I would then in turn forward this information the the Historic Elegibility Officers, at CAMS, along with yet another submission. It is the documentary evidence that will confirm the fact that is required.
I just race old datsuns:
Group S Historic 280Z ( not a zx but a USA 280z)
Group O/T Historic Datsun Sports 2000
Group G Datsun 120y  with FJ24 fitted( ex G. Fury)
Marque Sports Datsun Fairlady 1966 -SR20DET

Offline HS30-H

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 09:06:50 PM »
Alan HS30, what possibility is thete to obtain a scanned email copy of whatever Nissan issued advertising, pamphlets, dealer papers or documents, that show corelating dates or confirmation.
For example, say, a full page scan from a magazine showing a quarter page advert for a dealer selling a new car with the extra items fitted, and on same page would be the date of issue of magazine, and other non relevant period style adverts or articles.

Original ( 1969 year ) advertising, sales brochures, evidence of cars on the road in private ownership in Japan etc is no problem. I think what might be more difficult is in the second part of your question. You're asking for period proof of "extra items fitted" at sale, and that's going to be very difficult. I certainly don't know of any ( off the top of my head ) from period mags or reports from 1969 year.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying it will be hard to prove. Nissan's 'Sports Options' lists and 'Junsei Race Option' lists were official in-house documents from the manufacturer, so you can prove that the parts existed and that the manufacturer made them expressly for that purpose. The problems start when you find that - technically speaking - use of many of these items on a road car in Japan at the time was illegal. It didn't stop people buying them, having them fitted / fitting them themselves and using them on the road as well as in competition, but the problem comes from lack of documentary evidence. Because it was technically illegal to fit - for example - a set of triple 40PHH carbs to your L20A-engined Fairlady Z-L and use it on the road, it tended to be done somewhat covertly. When it came to 'Shakken' test time, many such parts would be taken off the car - and the originals temporarily re-installed - in order to pass the test. If you got stopped by a car-savvy polce officer, he could write you a ticket and force you to reverse the mods.

You've also got the problem of people pointing out that a Fairlady Z-L or Fairlady Z432 wasn't "the same" as a Datsun 240Z, because they had different chassis prefixes, different engines and different homologations.       

Offline Gordo

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 05:03:04 PM »
Hi guys just reading a zed book I recently bought. Racing in Japan. According to the manual issued by Nissan Motorsports Department in Japan, the Z432 was also available  to customers in Z432-R. The R was only 960kg with full fuel, 80kg lighter than standard 432 dispite the 100lt fuel tank instead of the60lt one fitted on all production models including theZ432. When it left the works, the R had the same engines the Z432. An auxiliary oil cooler was fitted and the R also had a different brake master cylinder, with out servo, and brake pedal assembly more suited to racing. The R also had a fiberglass front apron and bonnet instead of the steel, and Perspex windows to the sides and rear. Lightweight bucket seats with four point seatbelt for the driver.the heater, clock and radio were removed ulong with the sound deadening.An interesting addition was the fiberglass engine transmission cover and rear spoiler.Magnesium alloy wheels where initially listed as standard on the Z432 , but the R left the works on the standard 4.5J steel wheels. It also says the racing debut of the Z432 came at the Suzuka 300km Race held on the 18th Jan 1970. It goes on and on about the Zed racing history from 1970 onwards but no mention of any racing in 1969. Cheers Gordon.
Don't talk about it, just Race it!!!

Offline dat2kman

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2012, 06:56:54 AM »
Alan, Gordon, Mike Patch, and any others,
The input we are providing is all valuable and very usefull information.

As Alan notes, the fitting of many items did occur after a sale of a car, some items may have upset the local constabulary, ie triple carbs ( emisdions?) and had the stock items fitted, but other items, such as wider rims and bigger /better brakes, may not have upset the police.

It will be the rims and brakes that will be of most importance, along with the more aero front end.

May i pissibly ask, that, those of you that have documentary paperwork showing these items as being supplied and FITTED to a NEW car at time of sale, be scanned, or a digital photo taken, and emailed to me, so that i can start putting together a case.

I have the homologation documents for 240, as well as 260/280, these are CAMS accepted documents, that show the parts as "options" ie not dealer fitted.
I also have the Nissan issued Option Parts catalogues and price lists, with printed dates to confirm publication date.

The other documentation/books/brochures/advertisements, as mentioned above, may well go towards helping the few guys here in Australa wishing to persist with racing a Z in Historic Production Sports cars.

Any and all assistance will be appreciated, not by just myself,  but by the other 8 Z racers that are running.
I just race old datsuns:
Group S Historic 280Z ( not a zx but a USA 280z)
Group O/T Historic Datsun Sports 2000
Group G Datsun 120y  with FJ24 fitted( ex G. Fury)
Marque Sports Datsun Fairlady 1966 -SR20DET

Online NZeder

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 01:28:12 PM »
Right is has been almost 12 months since this thread was started. So any updates?

Well updates from me then.

I have picked up my other old set of MK63's that I used to own in the 90's (I also sold one set to Adam which are going on the Hornet) so I now have 2 sets again in my collection of parts. I also have acquired 2 x early S130 rear brake setups which looking at the FIA documentation is 100% dead ringer for the rear disc setup approved for the S30 on 1/3/74. The specs are the same 269mm x 10mm same designed clamshell caliper and pad size 100% identical. Given these were homologated as
Quote
"The modifications are to be considered as: normal evolution of the type"
aka not group 4 modification but standard production based I will be fitting these to the rear of RS30.

I will also fit the MK63, triple mikuni 44's that I have and I will apply for Schedule K locally here in NZ and see how I go at getting these through and if they come back asking for documentation - I will provide the relevant sections/copies of the sports options catelogues or FIA 3023 documentation.

So I have decided I will try and build my car/get approval for as a
Quote
Competition Sports and Grand Touring (GT) Car: This means cars which must have space for at least two(2) seats, disposed one on either side of the carís longitudinal axis and must comply with the regulations and highway code of the country of registration.
 
The  cars  must  be  derived  directly  from  vehicles  eligible  as  standard  Sports  and  GT cars,  but  includes  modifications  carried  out  in  the  period  within  the  limits  of  the international  rules  for  Grand  Touring  Cars  in  force  at  the  time.  The  fundamental  and general  designs  of  the  car  and  of  the engine  must  remain  the  same  as  those  of  the corresponding series production car.

So that means my S30 can and should be able to have all the parts fitted as they were used in Period in Japan GT series and other FIA events. The reason for going for the "Competition Sports and Grand Touring (GT)" class means I can fit the triple 44's, coilover and run a pedal box/dual MC setup if I go for the "Standard Sport and GT" then original carbs, non coil over (unless standard fitment) and brake booster must be retained. My S30 already has a pedal box installed so unless I want to undo lots of work already done then that is the class I have to go for.

One thing that is 100% NLA is the vented rotors for the MK63's so I spent, again, hours going over the internet, brake catelogues online and in PDF formats to find a suitable rotor that could be used - I have not purchase a set yet (budget for the month all gone on getting my old MK63's back) but I think I have found a good alternative - specs of this rotor are 276mm diameter, 22mm thick and 44mm total hat height. The original rotor spec was 276mm x 20mm total height 43.5mm for use with the 260z hubs. This was the closest I could find that is readily available (not like the hard to get Z31 4 stud items these days) and will not require the installation of a spacer etc however the centre ID does need to be taken out to the 81mm required to ID on the rear of hub and the PDC needs to be redrilled (maybe) from the default 4x100mm PDC to the 4x103mm PDC required for the mounting on the rear of the hub.

Once I get a set of these common as muck rotors and fit them up I will let you know it goes.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 01:49:22 PM by NZeder »

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Online NZeder

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »
So talking of MK63's Jason can you still get the seal kits (I sold my sets with my MK63's to someone in AU already :( )

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Offline dat2kman

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2013, 06:51:31 PM »
Should look here more
Mike yes i can get the proper seal kits for mk63.
Some have tried toyota hilux seals, but they are not quite right, they leak then fail!

I can get new calipers, they are a touch pricey!

NZ's historic rules do allow more freedoms than Australia's, we are still yet to establish that a new car was delivered to a person, to then be registered for use on public roads, with items from rhe option parts catalogue fitted, at time of delivery.
CAMS Australia has said,"show us proof of this, wether from the Nissan factory, or a dealer, and we will approve this"

I have been advised of a number of cars delivered by the factory, with these certain items fitted, for use on public roads, in Britian, Europe and Africa, their registration numbers, and who recieved these cars. Both from Nissan, and a concessionaire ( dealer) in Woking UK, and one somewhere in aafrica, being DT Dobiethis occured from 1970 through to 1975 with 240 and 260 Z models. CAMS "run on" rules will allow any 280Z to also have these items.

With the rotors to suit front using a 260 hub, there are some that are close, will require machining, and a slight rejig of the caliper mounts on the strut.

I have been successfull in obtaining a rear vented rotor for the 240 RS group B rally cars, it too needs a bit of machining ( works Stanza P10 had same rear H190 axle assy)
I also have sales brochures showing cars with these parts fitted, along with sales brochures for the 432Z.
All we know require are documents from the two dealers, or some form of evidence that shows this.
I just race old datsuns:
Group S Historic 280Z ( not a zx but a USA 280z)
Group O/T Historic Datsun Sports 2000
Group G Datsun 120y  with FJ24 fitted( ex G. Fury)
Marque Sports Datsun Fairlady 1966 -SR20DET

Online NZeder

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2013, 04:14:29 PM »
Jason,

Have you contacted the SVRA with regards to how they set their rules for Vintage Racing in the USA and how/why they allow all the stuff you need?

Here is their rules for the S30 aka 240z/260z/280z any model is accepted to be modified up or down the range.

http://www.vararacing.com
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 04:18:29 PM by NZeder »

76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
Previous
70 HS30-00016 240z
72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
79 HS130 280zx
82 HS130 280zx T top
2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
74 KB210 120Y Coupe
71 510 1600 Deluxe

Auszcar 240z, 260z, 280zx Forums

Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2013, 04:14:29 PM »