Author Topic: S30 - Racing and Period mods  (Read 5420 times)

Offline 260DET

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 05:13:06 PM »
My first post Jason, #5, plus what MaygZ said ie any applicatioin to have higher performance parts allowed is required by law to be properly treated and responded to.

Not having a go at you particularly Jason, you seem to be having a go which is more than others seem to have done.

Offline dat2kman

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 07:35:57 PM »
No no Richo, i know you are not having a go at me, but as i am involved quite heavily in CAMS processes, and know how it operates, and in regard to Maygz's "better git a lawyer, son, git a reel good one" sorts post, we do have to put a case forward WITH material that will support the case put.

Those who have tried in past, and i have some CAMS file copy of prior submissions and requests, are met with " show proof". There is not much point flogging a horse as has already occured.
By letting others know of this plight, and i do reckon we will get thete, just maybe, something will come to light.
Who knows.

Odd thing certain cars that one would thing be elegible for Group N tourers, are not, 'cos the variant was not sold in Aus, BUT in group S, it does not have to have been sold in Aus.
Take the blue 280Z, perfect case in point!
It is sometimes hard to comprehend CAMS's policies, but i am pretty sure we can get somewhere!
I just race old datsuns:
Group S Historic 280Z ( not a zx but a USA 280z)
Group O/T Historic Datsun Sports 2000
Group G Datsun 120y  with FJ24 fitted( ex G. Fury)
Marque Sports Datsun Fairlady 1966 -SR20DET

Offline MaygZ

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 07:13:07 AM »
Jason,  my post wasn't about go and git a lawyer.  All you need to do is some research into that Act to ensure I have the Section number right and that is applicable to your State.  Then you simply write them a letter, quoting the relevant Section and making the request for the reasons for their decision.

It is quite amazing how quickly a decision can change when they have to try to explain that their reason was not much better than 'just cause'!

I understand the frustration when dealing with govt bodies or other groups that are a law unto their own.

I have used this Act successfully on a few occasions; local council when planning/building permits were dealt with poorly.  As an example when told in Brunswick that I needed to build a car park in the back of my 5.5 m wide block and the telephone reason was because about 4 streets away there was a shortage of parking - comply or withdraw your building application!  The written response when asked pursuant to the Act was; that was an admin error and there is no longer a requirement for a parking space.

In short, you have tried everything else.  What do you have to lose?  It's amazing how the 'bullying' stops when required to put it into print.

MaygZ
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Offline PZG302

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 07:58:54 AM »
Jason,  my post wasn't about go and git a lawyer. 

That's because you forgotr to mention to also........

Get yourself a suit and tie
Get your hair cut way up high
Get yourself a lawyer son
Better get a real good one

 ;D

Sorry couldn't help myself....
Nothing to see hear move along

Offline chartoo

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 08:43:57 AM »
Why dont you try a thread ever at hybridz. Maybe the yanks can help you find documentary evidence
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Offline 260DET

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 04:14:51 PM »
I'm fairly sure that the US avenue has been tried several times without success, Japan is a more likely chance but the language is a problem. Jason mentioned their police S30's but I don't think that there is an available written record of that.

The first thing to do in making an application to CAMS is to get a copy of the eligibility guidelines/rules and study that, assuming they are available as they should be. In these situations the law requires an open process so you know what is required and so that an unfavourable decision may be reviewed. It's a matter of insisting that the process be done properly according to administrative law.

Offline Patch

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 04:40:51 PM »
I have got a mate who is right into Zds and a car and bike nut, He has an RX2 coupe and is looking for another 240z to take back with him. He is going back to Japan to live and speaks Japanese quite well, he teaches English there, he just left today to go to New Zealand, he will be back here next Weds and then going back to Japan about a week later.
So if he will be any good, work out what questions you need to ask.

Offline HS30-H

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2012, 07:57:06 PM »
Japan keept no records, however, right up the back of Zama, is the remaining Gnose Tokyo Police car, restored, these were made available, at some sort of "gift" to the police in late 1969 early 1970, but so were Toyota 2000 GT's. They have no remaining documentary evidence to establish supply/sale of these cars, but assured that the first Fairlady Z with six cylinder 2litre were distributed in late '69. If proof of sales exist for this, then all Z derivatives, due to model run on rules qualify for Australian Group Sb ( pre Dec 1969 sales).

No offence, but once again I'm having a hard time understanding stuff relating to dates that you've written on this forum.

First of all, that ex-Police 240ZG at Zama was not actually built until after late October 1971 - so how on earth could it have been given as a "gift" by Nissan in "late 1969 early 1970"...?

What actually happened was that Nissan donated ( tax deductable ) certain vehicles to the Kanagawa prefectural police department ( Kanagawa being the prefecture in which Nissan's main facilities were/are located ), first of all as a kind of obligation, but secondly as a kind of good-will PR exercise and thirdly to make sure that the vehicles of rival firms were not to be seen policing their 'home' patch. Nissan actually donated a couple of PS30 Fairlady Z432s to the Kanagawa highway patrol in 1970, but they couldn't have donated any ZGs before late 1971 as they simply did not exist.....  I'm not sure what help the police 240ZG would give anyway, unless you wanted to attach flshing red lights and a PA system to your race cars?


I'm also not quite sure what kind of "documentary evidence" of Z sales in Japan you have been looking for, but S30-series Zs ( 'S30-S' Fairlady Z, 'S30' Fairlady Z-L, 'PS30' Fairlady Z432 and 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R were build and sold to the general public in Japan before the end of 1969. That's an indisputable fact. I don't know what CAMS and/or your local race series organisers require, but here in the UK the RAC MSA and most race series organisers have historically refused to take into account anything much that went on in Japan in-period. What they want to refer to is what was sold in the UK, and when it was sold in the UK. A very blinkered attitude that is reinforced by owners and supporters of other ( ie non Japanese ) vehicles, who have historically tended to make the rules to suit themselves. That's just the way it is. I would presume it's pretty similar in Australia and New Zealand?

There are records and files of data at Nissan and with NISMO ( who took over all the 'Nissan Competition' archives dating from the early 1960s onwards when they were formed in 1982 ) and they are extremely comprehensive. Unfortunately, they are the private data of a private company, and having been largely un-curated for many years they are not really in researchable / archive order. There are moves in hand to start putting that right, but it's going to take time and much of its usefulness will depend not on what you know, but who you know.....

Not really what you want to hear, but that's the way things are at the moment.

Offline NZeder

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2012, 03:27:20 AM »
Well here in NZ under Schedule T&C rules any period mod is permitted (just need to prove the mod was used in period) so we are lucky if you run under T&C. Sometimes the issue is the class organisers making the S30 an invite only and some that means not invited :( so we don't have an issue with Motorsport NZ (our CAMS - sometimes call MNZ)

Under the Schedule K rules the cars has to be "the car" if a modified race car or a "standard" car as first purchased - as a result Schedule K is not that popular here in NZ but there is rumours that might change with more event/series organisers starting to cater for these cars.

Alan - do you have any period photos or photos of period cars you want/could to link/post here. I respect your copyright of the photo you have taken on your many trips to Japan.

Unfortunately I can't find any photos of S30 racing in NZ until the mid 80's - but I will keep looking.

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Offline Zedman240

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2012, 07:27:06 AM »
Only thing I can contribute are some pics of Peter Tobin racing a zed in the early seventies. He kindly let me scan the pictures he had in his album of his zed (and he had quite a few!). This car was later sold to Gordon Dobie.
HS30-00121 'early girl'
Have u got any old SHOGUN bikes in the shed? Under the house? ME WANT!
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Offline dat2kman

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 09:06:43 AM »
Alan ( hs30)
I knew the police car existed, while i was at Zama, with Kazuo Hioki, the curator, i asked him, " when was this car made" he said it was made in 1969.
I then asked "was the Police car supplied with this body style as a new car" he said yes.
I asked "do you have original documents from Nissan showing this information" he said "unfortunately no"

Maybe in the interpretation of the first question, he reffered to the Z as a Z, and not secifically as the Police car.

No matter, but the simple fact that Nissan supplied/sold/gifted/claimed tax deductions, for a new vehicle, fitted with a body kit ( G nose, flares, whatever) gives us scope here in Australia, under CAMS group S rules, to apply for the more aerodynamic kit.
Only thing, and this is what I am continuing to be on about, we NEED documentary actual evidence, to put a case forward.
Not heresay, not second hand news, not an email or notes from a historian, not a few unsubstantiated old photos, sure, all this adds to any case to be put.

Tell me, please, the various model variants you mentioned, including 432ZR, 432, other versions, you say was undisputable fact sold in Japan pre end of 1970,
It is this information we here in Australia need, we need sales brochures, dealer documentation, Nissan documentation, sales reciepts ( if any - very hard)
The more information that details the "optonparts" that we need, that were actually fitted, at time of a sale, whether it was from Nissan factory, or just even from one dealer alone, catering for the harder core buyers.

We need brakes (mk63)  vented fronts, and disc rear, rims, at 7" or greater, body kits ( g nose) triple carbs

They can be from any S30 model, be it Fairlady Z, 240/260/280 Zz, from anywhere in the world.
CAMS in Australia have set precedent where they will accept a car that fits in the Group S production sports requirements, from outside Australia, but the intending competitor must show indesputable evidence of such car, in whatever variant, as sold or supplied( police car) as a new car

Dimitri( zedman240) the Peter Tobin car if still existing will qualify as a Group T car, gp T is a CAMS category for genuine original prod BASED sports ars WITH a documented history, PRIOR to end 1981.
Gordons race cars, the D'Alberto Z, Lindsay Drife's Tom Cantwells, all have able to be documented history, and will need their logbooks, but best of all today, in 2012, and beyond, they can be raced in Historic category, rather than as a outdated uncompetitive car in Marque Sports.

I have a Group T car, it is nothing special, it complies to rules, but, when it is in the CAMS dictated category for which it must race at a Historic meeting, it is quite up at pointy end of field, and so would ANY one of the above potential Gp T Zeds.

Alan( hs30) how pissible would it be to obtain as much information as above, to be put to CAMS on behalf of the 7 or 8 competitors, in Z cars in Australia?
Once accepted, it should give impetus for others to up spec their cars, and we could have more Z's running in Gp S here.

It is a bit ordinary running behind the $250,000 budget Porsche's, when, if we can "get" what we need, we can be up front, as the Z's once were in USA (porsche give no pharque for japan racing)

Mike NZeder, the rules in NZ are sensible, my T car would be a K car, but my S car, would be hopelessly outclassed by your T&C cars, the silliness of it is, if say a NZ car in T&C was to come over here, it would NOT be allowed to compete in Gp S. a jolly shame!

I and a few others with T cars here are contemplating bringing them over to NZ to run Historic meets, quite a few Aussies have done this, and thouroghly enjoy the NZ motorsport fraternity hospitality.

We are also considering shipping a couple of older Datsuns to USA for the huge Historic meets they have
( two group T cars,, Datsun Sports 2000's of Lea and Henderson) the Yanks are very keen to get them over there.

Enuf now, my brain hurts!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 09:08:33 AM by dat2kman »
I just race old datsuns:
Group S Historic 280Z ( not a zx but a USA 280z)
Group O/T Historic Datsun Sports 2000
Group G Datsun 120y  with FJ24 fitted( ex G. Fury)
Marque Sports Datsun Fairlady 1966 -SR20DET

Offline dat2kman

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2012, 09:18:52 AM »
I'm sorry guys' i just get all a bit worked up and passionate about motorsport!
( probably why i didnt make it as a good El Presidente of the Z club up here!  - meh! )

When all i have just in front of me, is two or three Porshes, and i am wrenching the Nth degree out of the Z, knowing full well my discs are shot, brake pedal is on the floor, gearbox synchros are gone, tyres are mush.
I know i could get them, all we need is parity, and i feel it is possible.

We can make good power, mine with a single stock throttle body is as good as the twin Hitachi/SU .

We just need rims, brakes and a slippery nose.

We have a minimum weight, which is fine, we just have to get seroius in acid dipping our hanging steel panels till they go all pinholey
I just race old datsuns:
Group S Historic 280Z ( not a zx but a USA 280z)
Group O/T Historic Datsun Sports 2000
Group G Datsun 120y  with FJ24 fitted( ex G. Fury)
Marque Sports Datsun Fairlady 1966 -SR20DET

Offline Patch

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2012, 10:01:31 AM »
Just reading my book "Super Profile" It is going to be real hard to prove history in 1969, the book says.
Quote: Datsun chose the Tokyo Motor show of November 1969 to launch the 240z, and in only a few months the first production cars were arriving in the States.

Offline HS30-H

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2012, 09:45:44 PM »
Alan - do you have any period photos or photos of period cars you want/could to link/post here. I respect your copyright of the photo you have taken on your many trips to Japan.

Mike,
I'd be prepared to supply certain photos as part of a properly organised representation / application / claim to ratify and legalise certain parts and specs for racing, but I don't like putting too much stuff up on the internet. It ends up all over the place, and that can dilute its effectiveness....

Hope you understand.
Cheers,
Alan T.

Offline HS30-H

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Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 11:07:55 PM »
Alan ( hs30)
I knew the police car existed, while i was at Zama, with Kazuo Hioki, the curator, i asked him, " when was this car made" he said it was made in 1969.
I then asked "was the Police car supplied with this body style as a new car" he said yes.
I asked "do you have original documents from Nissan showing this information" he said "unfortunately no"

Maybe in the interpretation of the first question, he reffered to the Z as a Z, and not secifically as the Police car.

I've met and talked with Hioki san several times too ( he's a close friend and ex work colleague of some good friends of mine ) and I can only guess that it was a basic misunderstanding. Hioki san knows his stuff, actually owns a Roadster himself, and has been writing articles on Nissan ( and Prince ) race history for Nostalgic Hero over the last year or so. He probably would have become President of NISMO if he hadn't had an untimely illness, and now acts as a roving technical advisor, consultant and representative for them.

I should think he probably meant the S30-series Z debuted in 1969, not that actual car. In fact, that actual Kanagawa highway patrol Fairlady 240ZG has the chassis number 'HS30-10721', which puts it at around January or February 1972 production date range....

Quote from: dat2kman
No matter, but the simple fact that Nissan supplied/sold/gifted/claimed tax deductions, for a new vehicle, fitted with a body kit ( G nose, flares, whatever) gives us scope here in Australia, under CAMS group S rules, to apply for the more aerodynamic kit.
Only thing, and this is what I am continuing to be on about, we NEED documentary actual evidence, to put a case forward.
Not heresay, not second hand news, not an email or notes from a historian, not a few unsubstantiated old photos, sure, all this adds to any case to be put.

I would have thought that in the case of the 'HS30-H' model 'Fairlady 240ZG' with all its aero kit, that this would have been quite easy? Nissan's own sales brochures, advertising and press showed quite clearly that the model was put on sale in Japan from October 1971 onwards, and it was FIA and JAF homologated for racing purposes. The homologation papers state that the modifcation / variant can be backdated to chassis number "H(L)S30-000001", but it's for FIA Group 4 and Japanese GT use only. Most race sanctioning bodies would want you to prove period use, and you'd likely find it impossible to find evidence of period use much before the second half of 1971 I'm afraid. That's just the way it is.

Quote from: dat2kman
Tell me, please, the various model variants you mentioned, including 432ZR, 432, other versions, you say was undisputable fact sold in Japan pre end of 1970,
It is this information we here in Australia need, we need sales brochures, dealer documentation, Nissan documentation, sales reciepts ( if any - very hard)

As I mentioned, the 'S30-S' Fairlady Z, 'S30' Fairlady Z-L, 'PS30' Fairlady Z432 and 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R models were all being built, sold and registered for road use in Japan before the end of 1969. Nissan's own 'Shatai Bango Ichi Ran Hyo' lists ( Japanese home market production chassis number sequences for vehicles, split through chassis number prefixes by production year ) give the data quite clearly and officially. You could also refer to sales brochures, advertising and auto magazine articles. The 1969 year magazine articles clearly show Japanese road-registered cars. Other than that you'd be chasing evidence of individual cases, where sales receipts / invoices would be difficult to track down, but surely not impossible.

Quote from: dat2kman
The more information that details the "optonparts" that we need, that were actually fitted, at time of a sale, whether it was from Nissan factory, or just even from one dealer alone, catering for the harder core buyers.

We need brakes (mk63)  vented fronts, and disc rear, rims, at 7" or greater, body kits ( g nose) triple carbs

They can be from any S30 model, be it Fairlady Z, 240/260/280 Zz, from anywhere in the world.
CAMS in Australia have set precedent where they will accept a car that fits in the Group S production sports requirements, from outside Australia, but the intending competitor must show indesputable evidence of such car, in whatever variant, as sold or supplied( police car) as a new car

I think some of this is obviously a problem of interpretation. If a Porsche 911-L is allowed to use certain parts because they were fitted and sold as standard equipment on, say, a 911-S, then I don't see why you couldn't say that a Datsun 240Z should be able to use some of parts fitted to the Fairlady Z432. The problem is that the sanctioning bodies ( or your competitors ) often make a distinction between the export variant 'Datsun 240Z' models ( LHD and RHD ) and the Japanese domestic market variants. They say that they are "different cars", and in some ways they are correct. There were however 'HS30' prefixed Datsun 240Z models ( 240Z / 240Z-L / 240ZG ) sold in the Japanese home market from late 1971, and these should help. Again, it should be a case of making a copper-bottomed representation to your race sanctioing body that your competitors can't successfully protest.

Quote from: dat2kman
It is a bit ordinary running behind the $250,000 budget Porsche's, when, if we can "get" what we need, we can be up front, as the Z's once were in USA (porsche give no pharque for japan racing)

I'm afraid Nissan never really made the right moves in period. They didn't really homologate the cars and parts as well as they could have done, and much of what they did was centred around their own works activities and what suited them rather than their racing customers. You say, for example, that the Zs were in front of the Porsches in the USA in period, but they were only in front of the 914. The 240Zs that were successful in the SCCA's C-Production class were not racing head-to-head with the 911s.

Auszcar 240z, 260z, 280zx Forums

Re: S30 - Racing and Period mods
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 11:07:55 PM »