Author Topic: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax  (Read 5596 times)

Offline sco_aus

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 04:51:18 PM »
Way out of line Saxon, keep your personal opinions to yourself mate, no personal attacks are welcome here.

Offline PeterAllen

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 05:04:00 PM »
...retards ...retard ...

As a parent and carer of a disabled person I find your implied use of this word offensive.

Offline saxon

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2012, 05:44:31 PM »
Sorry Peter, i am very un pc, i didnt mean to offend you. Ive deleted my post.

I still think its a valid point. I dont care what climate change scientists say because their jobs depend on funding from governments, which they only get if they make a lot of noise about the impending apocalypse. And the best and brightest scientists dont become climate change scientists, simple as that.

Offline tbscobraZ

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2012, 06:16:46 PM »
Sco_aus I wasn't personally attacking you. When I said "I can't believe there are people out there that are soo blissfully ignorant and unaware of the damage being done to the in environment as we speak." I wasn't directing it at you personally although I can see how you thought that with my post being above yours. Truth be told I hadn't even read your post. I imagine you have noticed damage being done to the environment. My post was partially in reaction to a person I encountered in person who I gave a decent serving too because they suggested that humans have no impact on the environment whatsoever. Being someone who has done research and read many articles from lots of places and studying this exact subject, I felt the need to state some facts. One of which is that anthropogenic climate change is happening and is proven. However it goes beyond that what I focus on is all forms of human damage such as the increases in hard surfaces, water pollution, land clearing etc. There are many people out there [Silly alarmists and other people with agenda's eg. "Tim Flannery, Ros Gaunet (spelling) and all the rest of the doomsday profits"- AL] who also do more damage than good by stating nonexistent things such as because of climate change there are soo many cyclones and floods. That is all unproven crap and not science! Also I would like to point out that I disagree with the Carbon Tax!
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Offline perrin_07

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2012, 06:21:30 PM »
would be great if it didnt get so personal. Why cant people have a logical debate.

Its clear both sides have some great points, and until its proven completely i dont think people will change their mind from the views they have.

there is another age coming (most likely ice) whether we like it or not. When it gets here is totally up to us.

Offline sco_aus

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 06:24:42 PM »
I realise you aren't only attacking me, but the statement was about people in general who have a different opinion, this is a debate, not a fight.  I appreciate your opinion and your reply, but I maintain my position. 

Offline RB30X

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2012, 07:47:37 PM »
So to all of you who believe in global warming, does it make you all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that slowly but surely the big Mining and Manufacturering Industries are taking their work offshore which will cripple our economy. They can do the same thing overseas for half the price due to this global warming tax that has been placed on these companies based on a theory, and the money the government is stealing from them isn't actually going towards helping the issue?

Do you feel good knowing that even if Australia suceeds in reducing its carbon production by forcing all the big companies elsewhere, that it will be a piss in the ocean compared to the amount of carbon produced by countries such as China or India.

So we all suffer due to a lack of jobs and poor economy. Our kids grow up hearing what a prosperous country Australia "used to be" while India and China continue doing what they do, and the world runs out of food and we all die before anything we've done to contribute to 'saving the planet" even has time to take effect.

Offline Quandary

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2012, 08:56:42 PM »
So to all of you who believe in global warming, does it make you all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that slowly but surely the big Mining and Manufacturering Industries are taking their work offshore which will cripple our economy.

Being from Gladstone I thought you might know a little better the situation we have up here. Mining is going nuts at the moment and there are some astronomically huge projects that are impending. I work as an urban planner in Rockhampton and our areas and further west in CQ are just going off. Most people would be pretty astonished to be driving out so far west and arrive in a town with a brand new thousand lot development that looks like some new estate of an middle/upper class of a city sprawl suburb. I think mining is here to stay. We have many hundreds of years coal left in us to go. The only crippling is to those regions with FIFO's because Council's response to housing demand has been inept. As for manufacturing going offshore, it's been recognised as in danger long before the boom and carbon concerns.

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They can do the same thing overseas for half the price due to this global warming tax that has been placed on these companies based on a theory, and the money the government is stealing from them isn't actually going towards helping the issue?

I'm not in support of the tax, but there is still a fundamental need to address the concerns of people that live in the areas they call home and have raised families for years before these kinds of mines came to town. No different to a developer building a few units on an allotment. The developer pays for the infrastructure, pays for the connection to the existing infrastructure, and is essentially paying for the burden of additional loads to sewerage, reticulated water, traffic, etc. Mines are equally responsible for their loads to infrastructure. Every coal train moving along carries $3m worth of coal inevitably heading offshore. We're kidding ourselves if they can't afford to contribute something. No doubt some of them have in some form or another (eg. built roads, local services like gyms, town water infrastructure, etc) but often because it is in their own interest. The issue is to their extent of obligation to contribute to the community living in the area they are pillaging.

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Do you feel good knowing that even if Australia suceeds in reducing its carbon production by forcing all the big companies elsewhere, that it will be a piss in the ocean compared to the amount of carbon produced by countries such as China or India.

Many countries look to Australia to set precedence for environmental matters. I'm not sure why as we historically one of the biggest environmental vandals around. However, we have succeeded already in China admitting and planning to reduce carbon with both a tax and a trading scheme. I'd like to think we had some part in their decision. And since the writing is on the wall for these carbon intensive industries. It's those guys who are pouring large amounts of money into the 'renewable' energy projects like solar and thermal.

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So we all suffer due to a lack of jobs and poor economy. Our kids grow up hearing what a prosperous country Australia "used to be" while India and China continue doing what they do, and the world runs out of food and we all die before anything we've done to contribute to 'saving the planet" even has time to take effect.

I'm not sure about the lack of jobs thing. It really depends where you are willing to go to have a job. Interestingly, we are experiencing something in Aus we haven't seen before, the generational unemployed. They've grown up in unemployed families and have grown up in welfare living, are uneducated and unwilling to work, but whinge like no other.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 09:19:50 PM by Quandary »
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Offline Quandary

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2012, 09:04:59 PM »
I still think its a valid point. I dont care what climate change scientists say because their jobs depend on funding from governments, which they only get if they make a lot of noise about the impending apocalypse. And the best and brightest scientists dont become climate change scientists, simple as that.

You would be hard pressed to find any scientist call themselves a climate change scientist. They are climate scientists and being scientists are interested in facts. Thankfully some scientists are funded by government, but unfortunately not enough. Government would rather be out building third world demountables, installing flammable pink batts, and paying off hookers.

It's going to be hard to deny climate change when it's not only argued by climate scientists, but also chemists, geophysicists, etc. And not to forget the average Joe who is living on a Pacific island where his people have lived for hundreds of years and have a deep understanding of seasons and weather patterns and are now watching their islands slowly "sink".

And to counter your point about government funded scientists (which I argue they should be doing anyway), what about those skeptics caught out funded by industry / some of the largest companies in the world? It's nothing new.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 09:36:21 PM by Quandary »
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Offline RB30X

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 01:04:09 AM »
Mining is fairly low in energy consumtion so it will always be around, but look at what we are mining and where we are sending our products. Its going overseas to be used in high carbon producing industries.

Now if the govenment actually cared, they would stop exporting these minerals to countries that arent making an effort like we are.

If this occured they wouldnt be able to tax the sales and they wouldnt have as much money in their deep pockets. 

Offline BobsYourUncle

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2012, 05:00:31 AM »
It's going to be hard to deny climate change

I don't think anyone here is denying climate change, just questioning the impact of human civilization on said change. The climate is always changing - it's been both significantly cooler and significantly warmer in the past than it is now. Of course it'd be ridiculous to suggest that mankind has no impact on the Earth's climate, however the magnitude of this impact is still being debated.

It's a shame that something that should be a scientific discussion turns into something resembling an argument about religion, with words like "believer" and "denier".

Personally, I think we're rushing into this, and think that the carbon tax is a socialist wealth-redistribution scam that will cost jobs and harm our economy.

FWIW I've done a PhD (though not in a relevant field), and have read some of the literature.

Offline 620Z

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2012, 07:14:02 AM »
Wow I never read this post till now. Man the endless debate. I'm not getting into it but will make one statement.
Climate has been changing on earth since the dawn of time, hundreds of millions of years. Do you really think things have changed massively in the last 50-100 years? Maybe it's just a cycle? 10-12 years of drought and all the dooms dayers said it would never rain again. Well the last 2 years have proved that to be a load of crap. But I am glad we have a 28 billion dollar desal plant that will never be turned on. Show me the money. But we will pay.
The Australian Labour Government and many others around the world are simply spreading lies about climate to suit their own agenda's.
Carbon Tax has only been intorduced in Aust because Labour has to introduce yet another Tax to try and make one of their promises to bring our books into positive territory after throwing all our money down the drain. Sadly it won't happen even with this tax.
I am sorry to say but climate change has nothing to do with caring for the world but more to do with politics and money. Since Labour passed their bill (revenure raiser) they haven't said another word about the state of our climate.
Don't get me wrong. I am a greenie. I am all for not chopping down rain forests. But for different reasons other than introducing new tax's.
We will all pay the price and the temperature here in Australia won't change from the average. Don't be conned. Shutting down our coal power stations here in Aust for Carbon will do nothing while we still mine it and send billions of tons of the stuff overseas each year. We suffer the tax while the rest of the world benefits and polutes using our coal. Why not just tax what we send over seas to pollutant countires and use that tax to subsidise, what used to be our great lucky country. But if we really cared about Carbon and coal why wouldn't we stop or reduce the coal mining here for export? Oh more MONEY for Australia!
But don't get me started........................ Ha Ha  Over and out. >:(
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 07:26:04 AM by 620Z »

Offline AussieZed

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2012, 07:25:03 AM »
I've contributed all I can usefully contribute to this debate ... clearly people are getting angry and starting to throw abuse around rather than keeping the debate clean and useful.

If anyone wants some more information about this stuff, feel free to pm me.

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Offline 260Coupe

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2012, 09:40:03 AM »


At last the media is talking sense !

                     
It pays to check out Tim Flannery's predictions about climate change:
by  Andrew Bolt


Tim Flannery has had years of practice trying to terrify us into thinking human-made climate change will destroy Earth, says Andrew Bolt.

TIM Flannery has just been hired by the Gillard Government to scare us stupid, and I can't think of a better man for the job.
This Alarmist of the Year is worth every bit of the $180,000 salary he'll get as part-time chairman of the Government's new Climate Commission..

His job is simple: to advise us that we really, truly have to accept, say, the new tax on carbon dioxide emissions that this Government threatens to impose.
This kind of work is just up the dark alley of Flannery, author of The Weather Makers, that bible of booga booga.
He's had years of practice trying to terrify us into thinking our exhausts are turning the world into a fireball that will wipe out civilisation, melt polar ice caps and drown entire cities under hot seas.
Small problem, though: after so many years of hearing Flannery's predictions, we're now able to see if some of the scariest have actually panned out.
And we're also able to see if people who bet real money on his advice have cleaned up or been cleaned out.
So before we buy a great green tax from Flannery, whose real expertise is actually in mammology, it may pay to check his record.
 
Ready?

In 2005, Flannery predicted Sydney 's dams could be dry in as little as two years because global warming was drying up the rains, leaving the city "facing extreme difficulties with water".
 
Check Sydney 's dam levels today: 73 per cent. Hmm. Not a good start.

In 2008, Flannery said: "The water problem is so severe for Adelaide that it may run out of water by early 2009."

Check Adelaide 's water storage levels today: 77 per cent.

In 2007, Flannery predicted cities such as Brisbane would never again have dam-filling rains, as global warming had caused "a 20 per cent decrease in rainfall in some areas" and made the soil too hot, "so even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and river systems .... ".
 
Check the Murray-Darling system today: in flood. Check Brisbane 's dam levels: 100 per cent full.

All this may seem funny, but some politicians, voters and investors have taken this kind of warming alarmism very seriously and made expensive decisions in the belief it was sound.   So let's check on them, too.

In 2007, Flannery predicted global warming would so dry our continent that desalination plants were needed to save three of our biggest cities from disaster. As he put it: "Over the past 50 years, southern Australia has lost about 20 per cent of its rainfall, and one cause is almost certainly global warming .

"In Adelaide , Sydney and Brisbane , water supplies are so low they need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months."

One premier, Queensland 's Peter Beattie, took such predictions - made by other warming alarmists, too - so seriously that he spent more than $1 billion of taxpayers' money on a desalination plant, saying "it is only prudent to assume at this stage that lower-than-usual rainfalls could eventuate".
 
But check that desalination plant today: mothballed indefinitely, now that the rains have returned. (Incidentally, notice how many of Flannery's big predictions date from 2007? That was the year warming alarmism reached its most hysterical pitch and Flannery was named Australian of the Year.)

Back to another tip Flannery gave in that year of warming terror. In 2007, he warned that "the social licence of coal to operate is rapidly being withdrawn globally" by governments worried by the warming allegedly caused by burning the stuff.

We should switch to "green" power instead, said Flannery, who recommended geothermal - pumping water on to hot rocks deep underground to create steam. "There are hot rocks in South Australia that potentially have enough embedded energy in them to run Australia's economy for the best part of a century," he said.

"The technology to extract that energy and turn it into electricity is relatively straightforward."

Flannery repeatedly promoted this "straightforward" technology, and in 2009, the Rudd government awarded $90 million to Geodynamics to build a geothermal power plant in the Cooper Basin , the very area Flannery recommended.. Coincidentally, Flannery has for years been a Geodynamics shareholder, a vested interest he sometimes declares.

Time to check on how that business tip went. Answer: erk.
The technology Flannery said was "relatively straighforward" wasn't.
One of Geodynamics' five wells at Innamincka collapsed in an explosion that damaged two others. All had to be plugged with cement.

The project has now been hit by the kind of floods Flannery didn't predict in a warming world, with Geodynamics announcing work had been further "delayed following extensive local rainfall in the Cooper Basin region".
The technological and financing difficulties mean there is no certainty now that a commercial-scale plant will ever get built, let alone prove viable, so it's no surprise the company's share price has almost halved in four months.

Never mind, here comes Flannery with his latest scares and you-beaut fix.

His job as Climate Commission chief, says Climate Change Minister Greg Combet, is to "provide an authoritative, independent source of information on climate change to the Australian community" and "build the consensus about reducing Australia 's carbon pollution".

That, translated, means selling us whatever scheme the Government cooks up to tax carbon dioxide, doing to the economy what the floods have done to Flannery's hot-rocks investment.

See why I say Flannery is the right man for this job? Who better to teach us how little we really know about global warming and how much it may cost

Incidentally he [Tim Flannery] is on $3,600 a week of our taxpayers money for working just three days a week making up more bullshivere.

BTW

Tim Flannery is a mammalogist and paleaontologist, how he claims to  be some form of expert on climate change is truly incredible  - and he was names "Australian of the year" in 2007 for his Nostrodamous like predictions  by Krudd........go figure.



 

 
 

 

 

 

 





Offline Jimbo

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »
Great work Alan!!!! :) :) :)
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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »