Author Topic: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax  (Read 5594 times)

Offline tbscobraZ

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 02:11:35 PM »
I can't believe there are people out there that are soo blissfully ignorant and unaware of the damage being done to the in environment as we speak. Go look at the top of a coal fired power station or the tailings that mines put back into the waterways. Would you like to breathe what's coming out the top of the power station or drink from the water that is contaminated? Skeptics can go bury their heads in the sand just as long as they promise to keep them there. Climate change is not "ah we have had 2 degrees hotter on average for march", climate change is the GRADUAL changing of weather patterns and our climate due to many factors both natural and anthropogenic. Climate change is a natural phenomena however it is being accelerated by some human activities. In saying this my personal opinion is that the carbon tax is completely wrong. I have studied economics and what they are trying to do is very simple and in theory it works well, but in practice, in this economy now it is a complete nightmare. They are trying to promote structural adjustment to cleaner energy and more environmentally friendly ways of doing things. However in practice they money will not be spent on renewable energy or environmentally friendly ways of doing things rather it will just inflate prices for consumers and drive up the cost of living. If the government was serious about climate change they would reduce our reliance on mining, coal fired power stations, water recycling plants that are powered by clean energy ect. 
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Offline sco_aus

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 02:38:41 PM »
So we should all bury our heads in the sand because we have a different opinion? As you stated, the above is your opinion, not fact, so we should all bury our heads in the sand...

fudgein Troll.

Offline tbscobraZ

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 10:13:48 PM »
My personal opinion is on the Carbon Tax. Anthropogenic climate change is fact. I'm not a troll I've been apart of this forum for multiple years. Do some research. 

 “...the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes”. (Doran 2009) Taken from a skeptic site. http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus.htm.

"97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field surveyed here support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change"-PNAS: William R. L. Anderegga, James W. Prallb, Jacob Haroldc, and Stephen H. Schneidera. Expert credibility in climate change

http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/commissioned-work/anthropogenic-climate-change-expert-credibility.pdf

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Offline sco_aus

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 05:02:33 AM »
Making personal attacks on people with different opinions is trolling champ, regardless of your previous number of posts...  I can't be bothered finding a link to some research to prove my point because your not worth the effort.

Offline AussieZed

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 07:00:24 AM »
True enough, personal attacks are uncool.

But this isn't just about an opinion. An opinion is whether a 240z looks better painted red or painted blue. This is about scientific facts. You don't get to have an 'opinion' on whether the Earth is flat or round - it is round, it's a simple fact.

Earlier opinions about anthropogenic climate change are at best uninformed, at worst, simply an act of denial. I am willing to guarantee that the people with those opinions haven't read the scientific literature. haven't spent any time reading broadly across the climate change debate and certainly aren't familiar with the underlying data. And don't point to a single web site that supports your views - anyone could do that for ANY point of view. I've spent the last 20 years training to understand that data - and the fact is climate change is happening and that the only logical conclusion for why it is happening at the rate it is, is that humans are causing it. Carbon dioxide causes climate change, humans cause carbon dioxide.

Yes everyone has a right to their opinion. In this case the opinions are simply wrong, there's no sugar coating it.

I like Al Gore's description of climate change as an 'inconvenient truth' - none of us want it to be true, it just is, and now we have to deal with it.

It's funny how people hate the carbon tax. For almost everyone it won't cost them any more money. All it tries to do is create an incentive to use less energy - install a solar system and you will be ahead of the game. The real crime is that the people who have financially benefited from creating the pollution (largely big energy generators and big industry - with millionaire CEOs and rich shareholders) are being given a heap of help to 'cope' with a carbon price. Basically they got rich making the mess and now the country has to try and pay to deal with it. Now that annoys me...

We need our cars to become more efficient (and cars like the Prius are important test beds for developing the technology to allow that to happen). That's the only way to stretch our oil reserves so that we can drive our Zeds in the future. There was a great Top Gear episode where they try to get Jay Leno to slag off the Prius - and he basically says that energy efficient cars are great, that's what will leave oil available for my classics to be driven.

I like that guy's style.

I drive my classics (and my SUV) - and carbon offset them. I try to keep them tuned and I try and drive as efficiently as I can (although we all fang it now and again - you've just gotta). I reckon most of us do the same and our Zeds are probably not big environmental villains. We just need to hope that we can manage oil reserves and carbon dioxide in a sensible way so that no government does do a knee-jerk reaction and ban old cars.

(steps down off his soapbox).

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R.
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Offline sco_aus

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 07:12:12 AM »
That was my point, I'm not going to bother quoting a website. 
My problem with the Carbon Tax is that the goal is not good enough.  5% is nothing over 20 years.  Why not aim higher and make it worth while? 
I don't claim to be an expert and no I haven't done much research, ignorance is bliss.

Offline perrin_07

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 07:49:58 AM »
there would be a climate change happening anyhow, humans are just increasing the rate at which it will happen. Even if we got to the goal we all want, its still going to happen as the Earth goes through many cycles. Its had alot of these patches through its birth and it wont stop now. Im all for cutting carbon emmisions, recycling etc, but climate change is going to happen regardless.

You don't get to have an 'opinion' on whether the Earth is flat or round - it is round, it's a simple fact.

obviously u have never heard of the flat earth society :P. They.....they are dead set serious the Earth is flat :)

Offline 260Coupe

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 08:05:25 AM »
Firstly - I am true believer in climate change as it has been occuring for the last 4.5 billion years........so I am not a denier or a sceptic - I only deny that man kind is causing "catostrophic global warming that will see temps rise by 8 degrees in the next 50 years"- as one "expert" told us all. 

Ok so let us for a moment accept that Anthropogenic climate change is proven (which it is not - only those who have a vested interest in making us believe it is so will keep peddling this mantra) 

Please answer this -
When the Carbon Dioxide tax comes into play -
How much will the earths average temperature decrease by and how much much will it cost.? - funny that not one of our lefty politians or a single "climate" scientist will answer that !!!!

The best estimates are .004 of 1 degree and this may take a thousand years to take effect (confirmed by that fool Tim Flannery who said "it may never rain again" - hence why we have desal plants costing billions which will be never used )

The drought of the last ten years was caused by the El nino (the cyclic warming of the Pacific Ocean) - we will now have 10+ years of wet which is caused by La Nina - the now cooling of the Pacific Ocean 
BTW - the last volcanic eruption in Indonesia spewed out more CO2 into the atmosphere than what man has put out in the last 100 years.- fact stated in Scientific American journal

Also - notice the subtle change form the "Global Warming" hesteria to the new term "Climate Change" - this is very convenient way to blame every weather event of man made CO2 emissions ....(and please stop calling it carbon polution as CO2 is not a polutant) .....are you kidding me ???

The only "inconvenient truth"is that this CO2 tax is all about the political need to balance the budget, rake in more revenue and distribute it to the labour/green voters to buy more votes. The climate change debate is perpetuated by those who have a vested interest in "green technology" - Al Gore has major shares in wind farms and other major US/UN funded green energy projects - fact. 
"Climate Scientists"are funded by the current government - Scientists who wish to prove the negative and there are many thousands of them, get no funding and are ridiculed as herotics  !

Now that half the country is under water does any body notice the conspicuous absence of Tim Flannery, Ros Gaunet (spelling) and all the rest of the doomsday profits telling us we will be drinking our own urine in 10 years , not to build dams as they will never fill and to spend billions on desal plants (that consumed massive amounts of electricity thereby pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere !!!!)

Some facts

It is now raining - and lots of it.
Sea levels have stabilised and are now falling
Arctic ice may be less than previous years but Antartcic Ice has increased significantly
The Great barrier reef is not dead
Average temps on earth have not increased in the last 10 years

The next thing you'll hear is Bob Brown blaming these floods on the coal industry again - what an imbecile 

In closing - it is impossible to have a logical deabte on this subject as anyone who disagrees (with the alarmists) and has evidence to prove it is shouted down and ridiculed .

Al.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 08:48:31 AM by 260Coupe »

Offline sco_aus

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 08:08:29 AM »
Well said Al

Offline Jimbo

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 11:37:34 AM »
Great reply Alan.     I could not agree more,    Spot On...Well Said...
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Offline DAZDA

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 12:34:54 PM »
...
The only "inconvenient truth"is that this CO2 tax is all about the political need to balance the budget, rake in more revenue and distribute it to the labour/green voters to buy more votes.
...

Al.
  You can't say that Al even if it is the truth, the Labor/Greens voters might get upset...  ;)



The only comments I wish to make are;
Fact - Plants absorb CO2 and H2O (water) and through a process called Photosynthesis produce an orgnic compound (food for the plant) and release O2 (Oxygen).  This one is like the earth being round, it is a scientific fact.

Surely with all that extra CO2 all the plants will love it, absorb more light and therefore cool the earth??  Won't that cool the oceans?  But wait, the oceans are supposed to be warming, has anyone told all the plants!!!  ;)

"The rate of energy capture by photosynthesis is immense, approximately 100 terawatts,[3] which is about six times larger than the power consumption of human civilization.[4]" - Sourced from here
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Offline DAZDA

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 12:48:34 PM »
Back onto the topic at hand;

I guess I'm concerned that we might get punished for owning an old car by being made to pay more taxes,
Yes - Carbon Tax from July (cost of parts for old cars, fuel will go up despite the government's promises - we know they don't mean much) and there will be more taxes

higher rego and green slips,
Yes - Although it's disguised by being the other way around, in that pretend 'green' cars get cheaper rego in some states, and the gap in price will only get bigger
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Registration/FeesFormsAndFAQs/Fees/VehicleRegistrationFees.htm

restricted usage,
Yes - Bound to happen.  Just give the media and politicians enough time to brainwash society some more
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Offline saxon

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2012, 03:35:10 PM »
Even if man made global warming is true (which it isn't), I fully endorse it. It's fricken cold in Melbourne already and it's Feb. Where did our summer go?

edit: oooops it's March, still... it's cold and I don't like it!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:41:13 PM by saxon »

Offline AussieZed

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012, 04:19:31 PM »
Hey folks,

Yep climate has always changed and always will - but it is about the rates of change. Animals and plants can evolve to deal with relatively slow change and not with high rates.

Predicting the actual amounts of warming is difficult - but the climate has warmed since the Industrial Revolution measurably and continues to do so - there will always be variation year to year, but the average trend over time is warming. The last winter was the warmest in Melbourne in 90 years.

Please answer this -
When the Carbon Dioxide tax comes into play -
How much will the earths average temperature decrease by and how much much will it cost.? - funny that not one of our lefty politians or a single "climate" scientist will answer that !!!!


It will take at least 100 years for CO2 levels to stabilise and then drop. The carbon tax is about trying to reduce the rate of increase. So climate change will continue unless we take much more drastic action than the carbon tax. But personally I'd rather try and reduce the damage we are doing than just ignore it. The estimated costs of climate change are in the Garnaut Report (it was written by an economist after all) - they are in  the ballpark of 100x the cost of the carbon tax.

The best estimates are .004 of 1 degree and this may take a thousand years to take effect (confirmed by that fool Tim Flannery who said "it may never rain again" - hence why we have desal plants costing billions which will be never used )

I don't quite get the rain and temperature connection here, but ok. Best estimates are a 3.5 deg increase by 2070 for Victoria.

The drought of the last ten years was caused by the El nino (the cyclic warming of the Pacific Ocean) - we will now have 10+ years of wet which is caused by La Nina - the now cooling of the Pacific Ocean

Yep, droughts aren't climate change. But if you superimpose droughts on a drying climate then things get really scary.

BTW - the last volcanic eruption in Indonesia spewed out more CO2 into the atmosphere than what man has put out in the last 100 years.- fact stated in Scientific American journal

Can't find anything which Scientific American said like that (remembering Scientific American also isn't a scientific journal). Volcanic eruptions on the scale of Pinataubo in the Phillipines are about the same as one months human sourced CO2.

Also - notice the subtle change form the "Global Warming" hesteria to the new term "Climate Change" - this is very convenient way to blame every weather event of man made CO2 emissions ....(and please stop calling it carbon polution as CO2 is not a polutant) .....are you kidding me ???

Climate change is what scientists have been calling it for decades. Global warming is a really old term the media like. Climate change for south eastern Australia has been predicting for almost a decade long dry spells (10-15 years) interspersed with extreme wet spells (2-3 years), and changing patterns of rainfall, favouring summer extremes. These patterns were first predicted in 1986. But for other places it won't warm. Poor old NZ is getting cooler and wtter.


The only "inconvenient truth"is that this CO2 tax is all about the political need to balance the budget, rake in more revenue and distribute it to the labour/green voters to buy more votes. The climate change debate is perpetuated by those who have a vested interest in "green technology" - Al Gore has major shares in wind farms and other major US/UN funded green energy projects - fact.
"Climate Scientists"are funded by the current government - Scientists who wish to prove the negative and there are many thousands of them, get no funding and are ridiculed as herotics  !


Strange that most climate research in Australia was done under the previous right wing government - who actively sought to suppress research findings to the extent of firing scientists from CSIRO. As a scientist I would love to disprove climate change - it would make me much more famous than agreeing with it.

There certainly aren't thousands of scientists who 'wish to prove the negative' (which wouldn't be a very good way to approach the science - sounds like some pre-conceptions). Across all areas of science the major scientific bodies put the percentage of scientists who doubt anthropogenic climate change at less than a tenth of a percent. That would be less than a hundred people in Australian science.

Now that half the country is under water does any body notice the conspicuous absence of Tim Flannery, Ros Gaunet (spelling) and all the rest of the doomsday profits telling us we will be drinking our own urine in 10 years , not to build dams as they will never fill and to spend billions on desal plants (that consumed massive amounts of electricity thereby pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere !!!!)

I don't think very many environmentalists proposed the desal plant. More a political decision, that one. As outlined above the climate predictions for Australia predict extreme wet years - the problem is that we need to plan for extreme dry ones, unless someone can find a magic box to store water in.

Some facts

It is now raining - and lots of it.

True enough. See above.

Sea levels have stabilised and are now falling
Not true. No studies support falling sea levels.

Arctic ice may be less than previous years but Antartcic Ice has increased significantly
Not true. Arctic Ice has declined significantly, Antarctic snow pack has increased, areas of ice are within the range of previous years.

The Great barrier reef is not dead
Very true. Did anyone say it was going to be??

Average temps on earth have not increased in the last 10 years.

Not true. Global average temps over the last decade are up 0.55 degrees - at the upper end of the worst predictions made a decade ago. 

In closing - it is impossible to have a logical deabte on this subject as anyone who disagrees (with the alarmists) and has evidence to prove it is shouted down and ridiculed .

Not shouting you down at all - nor am I using inflammatory language like 'alarmists', claiming anyone is saying stuff just because of their political inclinations or bad mouthing any individuals.

Happy to have a logical debate, but that means making sure the facts are sound as a basis for that debate. Some of the ones in previous messages are wrong.

R.
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Offline saxon

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 04:39:09 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 05:23:24 PM by saxon »

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Re: Clean energy future and Carbon Tax
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 04:39:09 PM »